Can we please stop saying the vaccine does not reduce transmission?

[Frequentflier]

It does. Plenty of evidence now out which everyone can find for themselves. edition.cnn.com/2021/03/29/health/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-work-wellness/index.html

It is up to you to not take the vaccine if you don't want to. But please stop dressing it up as an unselfish choice if you have no conditions that stop you from taking it.

covoid your tone ain’t great. Why the anger?

These are prominent scientists from EU and non EU countries.

I think the worry is the UK isn’t handling reports of side effects as diligently. For example, on the thread about side effects relating to the menstrual cycle, someone yellow carded it and was told there was no “evidence”.

There will be no evidence if you don’t go looking for it!

I just don’t trust the system.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

The thing is we don't need a bunch of amateur scientists with an agenda to trawl through yellow card reports for a gotcha moment that somehow no one else but them and their amazing Google skills can figure out

Because clinical trials were done!
With placebo control and randomisation precisely to even out bias from different populations and to ensure that the benefits outweigh the risks for all age groups studied or the vaccine would not be approved by regulators for that age group.

You are not going to find reliably that the risks outweigh the benefits for any age group that a vaccine is licensed for because the MHRA have already done that and concluded that the opposite is true.

But someone did post last night that they thought a bunch of Mumsnetters might be more likely to be right than the MHRA. If you are that dumb and paranoid then there will be no convincing you I guess.

Very true. The stupidity of some posters on here is mind-boggling. I just hope they don't represent too high a proportion of the population or we have no hope... I'm going to hide the thread as it's too demoralising.

The chances of a frail elderly person in a care home dying are pretty high at any time

But if they die after contracting COVID, not necessarily from COVID, it’s still counted as a COVID death- even though the ‘chance of them dying is pretty high at any time’.

@Belladonna12 " The stupidity of some posters on here is mind-boggling."

It is particularly from posters like you talking about all the apparent deaths and dangers to young people that have been underreported.. I'm afraid you haven't a clue what you are talking about

Yet again with the 28 day thing

The government records two sets of stats

They record
People dying within 28 days of a positive test
AND
People for whom a Dr thought that COVID was the cause of death and wrote it on a death certificate

The death certificate data take a while to come through so that's why they use the within 28 days initially as it's quick and easy as a rough estimate

When the death certificate data are analysed they are in fact higher than the 28 days data which suggests that the number of people dying of something other than COVID within 28 days is outweighed by the number dying of COVID after 28 days

In my own clinical experience it very often takes longer than 28 days to die of COVID especially for young people who we are desperately striving to keep alive. It takes 10-14 days post test for severe symptoms to even start in most cases and people will usually be kept alive in ICU much longer than 28 days.

If anyone seriously suggests a Dr would write COVID as a cause of death on a certificate for someone dying in an RTA then again I am just going to have to file that under too paranoid and dumb to engage with.

Who is that post to @CovoidOfAllHumanity?

My tone isn't great anymore I will admit because I am sick of trying to moderately defend scientific method and findings and being personally attacked for it. It was better at the start of the thread.

I am going to hide the thread and do something more useful with my day
(I am on holiday in case you are doubting that I do actually work for the NHS)

The MHRA are engaging with the German findings they are not ignoring them they just don't think that it's enough to pause for. In fact the EU regulator doesn't even think so. It's only some individual countries that do.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

"In my own clinical experience it very often takes longer than 28 days to die of COVID especially for young people who we are desperately striving to keep alive."

Can you post some actual evidence to support this statement or is it just made up rubbish as the age demographics of covid deaths don't support what you are saying

COVID OVERCOUNTING Third of ‘coronavirus victims’ in July and August really died from OTHER causes, Oxford Uni scientists reveal

"NEARLY one third of recorded Covid-19 victims in July and August actually died from other causes, Oxford Uni researchers have found.

Around 30 per cent of coronavirus fatalities died primarily from other conditions, the team's startling analysis shows.The researchers found that anyone who suffered from a heart attack or died in a car crash may have been included in the Office for National Statistics' figures if they had tested positive for the respiratory disease.

People may also have been recorded as Covid victims if medics believed the virus exacerbated an underlying condition.

In July and August, the disease was not actually the main cause of the death in 28.8 per cent of all registered coronavirus fatalities.That figure is 7.8 per cent since the start of the pandemic earlier this year, the Telegraph reports.

This comes after the World Health Organisation (WHO) said deaths should not be recorded as Covid-related if the virus did not cause the fatality even if it appeared as a “significant condition”.

Oxford University's team uncovered the figures after comparing registered deaths where Covid was not the main cause to the ONS data.

They fear the problem with overcounting will get worse as more people contract the coronavirus.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/12714515/coronavirus-death-toll-overcounting/

You hide the thread if you wish @CovoidOfAllHumanity, hide from the truth and your own naivety/ ignorance

The Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Authority regulate medicines as the name suggests

As such they are not connected to the NHS and did not in any way 'preside over many deaths'

That would be the government

I do have faith in the MHRA. People call me a sheep but it seems more sensible to trust in the MHRA than in my ability to find the relevant information, armed with my degree in law and economics: and zero scientific training:)

Frequentflier

I also have a law degree and due to start a masters in September which is why I’m astounded at the support for vaccine passports and the belief by some that punishment should be a ‘consequence’ for exercising bodily autonomy.

I couldn’t care less who isn’t vaccinated if I didn’t believe it wouldn’t protect me I wouldn’t take it.

*would

@Heathermary1995

Time from symptom onset to death U.K. - by age group

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/928729/S0803_CO-CIN_-_Time_from_symptom_onset_until_death.pdf

Haven’t read the thread, no doubt it’s full of the usual

But no OP, you don’t get to tell people what they can say. People believe different things

[quote bumbleymummy]@Heathermary1995

Time from symptom onset to death U.K. - by age group

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/928729/S0803_CO-CIN_-_Time_from_symptom_onset_until_death.pdf[/quote]
Interesting @bumbleymummy which seems to contradict the expert @CovoidOfAllHumanity who apparently has a PHD in a vague science she won't specify

Well it seems vaccine passports are likely to become a thing and potentially trialled shortly, all the news channels are reporting it. But you will be able to get a antibody test and if you have them be able to integtrate also. The question really is how far they go with it, travel is a given, but pubs, restaurants, workplaces all have a question.

A lot will go for it, as it will be a popular move for anyone who has been vaccinated and is worried.

Bluntness100

There will be many who have T cell immunity but cannot prove it. As there’s no evidence yet how long the vaccination gives immunity for, the vaccinated may well be more at risk from each other.

Society is at risk from this government and those that support it with their totalitarian views and not from a virus.

You will also have the option of a recent negative test, according to everything I have read.

One of these you mean?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-56556806

@reformedcharacters

Bluntness100

There will be many who have T cell immunity but cannot prove it. As there’s no evidence yet how long the vaccination gives immunity for, the vaccinated may well be more at risk from each other.

Society is at risk from this government and those that support it with their totalitarian views and not from a virus.

I’m not going to get engaged in a political discussion but will respond on your first paragraph.

And yes, you’re correct it is unknown due to the time it takes to test this obviously. . However according the the British medical journal it is now looking like immunity following the vaccine may last several years at least.

It’s likely that as new strains emerge then it will be like th flu. With annual injections for the current dominant strain, but it’s too early to tell.

I don’t really understand your point that some people may be immune but unable to prove it, but logic would say that’s a small percentage of the population and only a small percentage of those will choose to be in vaccinated.

I think that vaccine passports need to be announced and what the intention is so that people who intend to remain unvaccinated have all the information available to them when they make their decision. As in they will no longer be able to travel abroad, go to pubs, clubs, restaurants, theatres, the cinema, stadiums etc because of the potential heightened risk they pose.

Yes don’t engage Bluntness100 you’re clearly one of those with totalitarian views.

I have private healthcare I no longer wish to fund an NHS for people like you.

@reformedcharacters

Yes don’t engage Bluntness100 you’re clearly one of those with totalitarian views.

I have private healthcare I no longer wish to fund an NHS for people like you.

Honestly every other post of yours is a personal attack, I get you don’t agree but as I keep saying after every insult, when you have to resort to this you loose the argument, you loose all credibility,

[quote reformedcharacters]One of these you mean?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-56556806[/quote]
Yes, at some point someone may be unable to go to the theatre because they refuse to have a jab, an antibody test wrongly makes it look like they are not immune and their test is handled by a sloppy laboratory worker so they end up with a false negative. Unlucky.
Or we could just keep all the theatres shut for longer.