Can we please stop saying the vaccine does not reduce transmission?

[Frequentflier]

It does. Plenty of evidence now out which everyone can find for themselves. edition.cnn.com/2021/03/29/health/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-work-wellness/index.html

It is up to you to not take the vaccine if you don't want to. But please stop dressing it up as an unselfish choice if you have no conditions that stop you from taking it.

I don't see how refusing the vaccine is uniquely selfish beyond anything else

No one said it was.

And yes plenty of things are selfish, it’s not an exclusive unique club. One thing behind selfish doesn’t preclude anything else being and it’s not a competition. No one is grading it.

But we are in the midst of a global pandemic. Something that’s a likely once in a life time event. Something none of us have ever experienced before or hopefully will never again. The way out of it is vaccinations. And that relies on enough people getting it. To protect ourselves and each other, to allow society to resume normally, so when someone says “nah mate, not for me” but will happily resume normal life, and risk others then it’s selfish. If they say “nah mate” and stay home alone. Then that’s fine. But if they want to see friends, family, go to work etc, then it’s beyond selfish,

It's an illogical position to be critical of vaccination and critical of lockdowns from where we are now

You can say we could have acted differently in the past but we didn't and this is where we are now and the choices are 1) no more lockdown, let the virus run amok and whatever consequences there are let them be or 2) vaccinate and don't lockdown and mitigate the worst effects of mass spread or 3) don't vaccinate and rely on lockdown. It seems entirely logical that the government advocate the middle way.

All the new variants we have had so far have originated in mainly unvaccinated populations so that's where they will likely come from again. Having some of the population partially vaccinated might arguably drive selection pressure for vaccine resistant variants so the safest thing is to reduce transmission and therefore chances of mutation by getting as many as possible vaccinated.

Why would vaccines be a useless product? I don't get that line of reasoning at all. Whilst we have COVID they will be commercially valuable.

Druidlookingidiot

How did you come to the conclusion I’m stupid?

What’s your definition of stupid? Academic achievement? Difference of opinion?

Excellent post, WanderingFruitWonderer, there are altogether too many people who wrongly believe they have a mandate to police other people. The manner is always in an aggressive a way as possible, having no positive effect.

People decide for themselves what risks they will take. As long as they're not determining these for other people there's no issue.

@reformedcharacters

Druidlookingidiot

How did you come to the conclusion I’m stupid?

What’s your definition of stupid? Academic achievement? Difference of opinion?

Your reply speaks volumes:

I can’t agree with this as social pressure amounts to coercion. We’ve gone down a road of vaccination being virtue signalling and people are being singled out and bullied, it’s wrong and it’s also wrong to pressure people to reveal their status

Your aggressive insults prove my point quite nicely.

@Bluntness100 I agree with some of the things you're saying. I'm by no means anti-vax, and as explained probably will get vaccinated. I just think it's important to have balance. I know of only two people who are (for the foreseeable) refusing the vaccine. They're the nicest, least selfish people I know! They have their own reasons. I know they've thought deeply about it, and plan to stay away from crowded spaces etc for some time to come.
I apologise if my post seemed a bit dramatic! I'm in a state of high stress about this, and it probably affects the way I'm reacting to things I'm reading. I really do want to be a good and responsible citizen. But it's so complex for me, not least because of extreme medical anxiety. Allegations of selfishness (even just for questioning) make it a million times worse, and hard to think clearly about it. Hopefully by the time I'm offered the vaccine (not for ages!) I'll have greater clarity of thought...

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe thank you so much. I can't tell you how much I appreciate (and at this point need) your kind response

Oh just have the bloody vaccine, 30 million people have had it before you. Stop being so bloody precious and have the thing!

Very few young people have died of covid itself. Most die several months after a severe covid infection as their bodies shut down. This vaccine prevents severe covid for all with effectiveness greatest in the young and so dramatically reduces the pressure on the nhs.

I think people are within rights to decline the vaccine but schools / GPs / shops / places of worship / pubs / airlines / the nhs are all also within their rights to tell you to piss off if you haven’t had the vaccine.

Have the vaccine, don't have the vaccine... just don't be an ass to people who are doing differently to you. Rather than belittle people, or call them selfish, maybe try to allay any fears they might have. No one changes their mind because they were called names.
The way this pandemic and lockdown have divided people is scary and incredibly sad.

[quote WanderingFruitWonderer]@Bluntness100 I agree with some of the things you're saying. I'm by no means anti-vax, and as explained probably will get vaccinated. I just think it's important to have balance. I know of only two people who are (for the foreseeable) refusing the vaccine. They're the nicest, least selfish people I know! They have their own reasons. I know they've thought deeply about it, and plan to stay away from crowded spaces etc for some time to come.
I apologise if my post seemed a bit dramatic! I'm in a state of high stress about this, and it probably affects the way I'm reacting to things I'm reading. I really do want to be a good and responsible citizen. But it's so complex for me, not least because of extreme medical anxiety. Allegations of selfishness (even just for questioning) make it a million times worse, and hard to think clearly about it. Hopefully by the time I'm offered the vaccine (not for ages!) I'll have greater clarity of thought...[/quote]
I get that and I think if a refusal is due to an illness, be it mental or physical health this is very different. 💐

The selfishness is the people who are not in any way ill they just don’t wish it. The typical anti vaxxer.

Personally I don’t think anyone should be forced to have it, and I also wouldn’t personally call anyone selfish for not having it, I’m just stating why it would be seen as such by many.

WanderingFruitWanderer I do agree with your post

I have said all along that it's for each individual to make their own risk assessment

However it is not wrong to put forward an argument based on truth as the OP has done that vaccination helps others as well as yourself and this is a factor a person should weigh up in their decision.

The best thing for the population is undoubtedly that more people be vaccinated so the government really is duty bound to advocate it. Nothing else makes any sense.
But still an individual's decision can be more nuanced than that.

If I, as an HCP, chose not to be vaccinated I would not expect to have to defend that to individual patients as that is my private info but I would expect to tell my employer and I would expect that they might choose to redeploy me to another area and I would accept that as a natural consequence of my decision.

If my friends and family questioned my decision I would be happy to defend it to them. If I chose to post on Mumsnet about my vaccination decision, especially in AIBU, then I'd expect robust criticism of my decision.

The problem with an individual decision not to vaccinate is that actually it does affect other people. Like decisions that affect the climate affect us all. You still have the right to make such decisions but you may encounter criticism if you fly long haul, have a large family, drive a petrol guzzling car etc etc.
If you don't like criticism of your decisions then don't discuss them especially not on a discussion forum.

I think people are within rights to decline the vaccine but schools / GPs / shops / places of worship / pubs / airlines / the nhs are all also within their rights to tell you to piss off if you haven’t had the vaccine

Currently legally they are not within their rights at all.

Maybe next time if people are asked to sacrifice they will not be so willing.

The way this pandemic and lockdown have divided people is scary and incredibly sad

I’d agre with this, it’s hugely emotive. Who can forget the people posting on here screeching to stay the fuck home and that by walking in a desserted field you’re killing people. One poster even famously wrote that going to buy something to drink, milk etc wasn’t a necessity as long as you had water in your tap. Someone else posted it would be the start of world war three, many have predicted it will never end and life will never return to normal. Others think it’s all a hoax, so the government can micro chip us. The amount of people curtain twitching on their neighbours and reporting them is frightening.

The way it’s divided people can’t be under estimated,

Thank you @CovoidOfAllHumanity and @Bluntness100 for your balanced responses to my post. Yes, I agree, the OP, and the link he/she posted was useful. I'm very interested and influenced by the scientific data.
I think it's more the general, almost endless, chants of selfishness, in the face of any dissent or questioning, that I struggle with, and find so unhelpful for everyone generally.
Thank you again

I've never understood why the concept of selfishness is treated so differently re covid than it is with every other aspect of modern, western, capitalist life. I can think of countless examples of people prioritising their own job, family, wellbeing over the health and happiness of strangers, and that is largely treated as totally normal and expected. Why is it that with covid we're all expected to act selflessly even to our own detriment, but that isn't the case in any other aspect of society?

@FourTeaFallOut

I honestly can't tell if people are posting in bad faith when they say that vaccines don't reduce transmission or if they genuinely believe it to be the case?

I usually assume they are, I'm afraid.

I think everyone has experienced it in a different way. Having been inside a hospital and seeing people very sick and dying, not all of them very old, some even my colleagues, means I just have very little patience for deniers.

But I don't entirely lack sympathy with those who have suffered in other ways. Mental health impacts and impacts of delayed treatment I am definitely seeing firsthand too via hospitalisations

My kids haven't loved it but they haven't been destroyed by it. My friends son though looks likely to do much worse in his A levels than he was previously predicted as he didn't cope well out of school and that is a permanent effect in his life. My cousins kids started uni one last year and one this year so both of them have had a very shit time.

It's not that I am some kind of fan of lockdown I just think the alternative would have been worse which not everyone agrees but then again they weren't inside a hospital. In January the atmosphere was of barely concealed panic and the whole place was over run with COVID with staff dropping like flies.

Between the devil of an unrestricted COVID pandemic and the deep blue sea of lockdown is it any wonder I am pro mass vaccination as a way out of this? From my POV it seems just logical. I could see that from the very start and that's why I volunteered for the trial.

There's very few people it hasn't affected negatively in some way and it's sad to see that leading to division and not to uniting against adversity as it seemed like it would at the start.

I don't hate or even dislike anyone who chooses not to have a vaccine I just want people to make an informed decision in possession of correct facts.

@PenelopeTitstop

I've never understood why the concept of selfishness is treated so differently re covid than it is with every other aspect of modern, western, capitalist life. I can think of countless examples of people prioritising their own job, family, wellbeing over the health and happiness of strangers, and that is largely treated as totally normal and expected. Why is it that with covid we're all expected to act selflessly even to our own detriment, but that isn't the case in any other aspect of society?

Totally agree. There's a limit to what people can be asked to sacrifice for the 'greater good', which currently of course is defined as limiting Covid cases at almost any cost.

As you say, it's normally very much accepted that all of us prioritise ourselves and our families far above everything and everyone else. Within reason at least, that isn't considered 'selfish', just normal human behaviour. Generally speaking, many if not most people are reluctant to agree to even modest tax rises - even if they would barely miss the money - to fund the NHS and other public services. Now, however, people are expected to watch as their jobs and livelihoods are destroyed, perhaps permanently, but they shouldn't complain because that's 'selfish'. It's bizarre.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Nothing is ever 100%

No vaccine will stop transmission completely
No vaccine will stop infections or serious illness or hospital admission completely 100% but it will substantially reduce the chances of these things happening

So when people say
The vaccine prevents serious illness
Or hospital admission
Or spread
They mean to a large degree but not 100%

So we can now accurately say 'the vaccine reduces transmission' and it can be argued that it is a reason to have it. You might not agree that it is a good enough reason for you personally but you cannot argue that preventing transmission isn't something the vaccine does because that would be wrong

This.

Also there was a strategic benefit in the early stages of vaccination in saying it did not reduce transmission and all restrictions still apply to those vaccinated. Society already divided between those who have suffered badly either due to death or illness or financially and those who ticked along comfortably working from home. Allowing those at front of vaccine queue to be free of restrictions would have massively reduced compliance among the rest.

@reformedcharacters

Your aggressive insults prove my point quite nicely.

I've just got no patience left, none.

@TheDailyCarbunkle
Agree.

Those that don't want it have no choice really, no coercion by Lenny Henry or "Asian cricketer" is necessary, you will just have a shadow of a life and not able to do anything unless you have your golden vax certificate.