Can we please stop saying the vaccine does not reduce transmission?

[Frequentflier]

It does. Plenty of evidence now out which everyone can find for themselves. edition.cnn.com/2021/03/29/health/pfizer-and-moderna-covid-19-vaccines-work-wellness/index.html

It is up to you to not take the vaccine if you don't want to. But please stop dressing it up as an unselfish choice if you have no conditions that stop you from taking it.

AlexaShutUp I don’t know the exact figures but take up has been high in the at risk groups so assuming the vaccine is effective as is being reported we would not see anywhere near the number of patients needing treatment as before.

Viruses mutate and unless transmission was completely stopped it will mutate even with 100% vaccination. An updated vaccine is already on the way.

I don’t disagree that is vital as many accept the vaccine as possible.

Thanks for posting that OP, sounds really promising! Cant wait to get mine but suppose it will be a while off as I'm 37, but fingers crossed, might be sooner!

@TheDailyCarbunkle is spot on.

@Remmy123

No idea but someone with both jabs got covid - got into car with someone with one jab, she got covid and passed it on to husband and kids - she was the most poorly out of al.

Was she hospitalised?

@HarrietOh sorry I shouid have added not hospitalised but like bad flu like symptoms plus loss of taste etc (young late 30's)

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

It also makes no sense to me that people who are anti lockdown would be anti vaccine

The vaccine is the best way to make sure there are no further lockdowns

We need a high rate of vaccination through the whole population to suppress transmission rates

If it's still circulating at high rates in unvaccinated people
-There will be a greater chance for new variants
-There will be local outbreaks on areas with low uptake amongst vulnerable people and health drying those areas could still be overwhelmed
-people who legitimately can't have the vaccine eg those with advanced dementia who can't consent or pregnant women or people with allergies won't be able to rely on herd immunity to be protected and will remain at risk

Well exactly. If you are against lockdowns you should be keen on vaccines. Which is why Lenny Henry is out appealing to black people to take the vaccine. We need more Asians to appeal too..Maybe a cricketer or two

@TheDailyCarbunkle

I find it interesting how not taking a vaccine is considered a 'selfish' choice, when shutting down the entire economy, forcing people out of work, denying children education, creating a budget deficit that will haunt our children for their entire lives, destroying careers and livelihoods in a way that massively impacts younger people, ie the people in the least amount of danger from covid, is considered - what - unselfish?

It is unbelievable to me that people are expected to sacrifice and sacrifice and sacrifice to extent of taking a medication that they personally don't need and may have unknown side effects that have long term health consequences, and people are genuinely calling them selfish for not wanting to do that.

What the fuck is wrong with people???

Why are people agreeing with this rhetoric? It doesn't even make sense!

If more people have the vaccine then there will be less need to shut everything down. The people refusing the vaccines are the ones who might push us into needing another lockdown and more social distancing measures.

This makes it sound as if the people getting the vaccines are responsible for the lockdown

@StealthPolarBear

Vaccines don't reduce the risk to zero though, and people struggle with risk, assuming it's either 100% or 0%

Well put. Yes not zero and therefore people will bring up anecdotal evidence about Cousin Mary getting Covid even post vaccine. But lowers the risk.

[quote Remmy123]@HarrietOh sorry I shouid have added not hospitalised but like bad flu like symptoms plus loss of taste etc (young late 30's)[/quote]
That's good. I think the vaccines reduce the chance of severe illness (hospitalisation or sadly, death), rather than completely prevent it across the board.

I think the first poster who responded is speaking for those who are younger and do not feel comfortable or confident in having the vaccine, namely because they are most likely to have covid mildy. Before anyone jumps in, yes apparently nearly everyone on here has known a healthy 20 year old Olympian who has died from it, but generally we know that the younger you are the better your odds.

So, I think that poster is just saying it's a bit rich to call this group selfish when they have lost so much for a virus that doesn't vastly affect their age groups, yet the things they have given up is likely to hang over them for the rest of their lives.

And before anyone screams NHS at me, I do get it but I can also see what that poster is saying completely.

OP, your link refers to data concerning the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, not the Astra Zeneca, which most people in this country will have. They are very different types of vaccine.

Not an anti-vaxxer by the way. I've already had mine.

People still have the freedom to refuse any medication they like.

All medications carry risks, all medications are not 100%, effective for all.

The medics of this world understand the need for herd vaccination, they are working to reach out to groups whom refuse. The odd refuser here and there won't matter.

Everyone has access to the internet on here, if people are going to take their medical advise from opinion sites or Facebook memes what exactly can you do?

@FunnyWonder

OP, your link refers to data concerning the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, not the Astra Zeneca, which most people in this country will have. They are very different types of vaccine.

Not an anti-vaxxer by the way. I've already had mine.

Early data from Astra Zeneca is promising too. I think it will show the same. It's just that scientists are being cautious. edition.cnn.com/2021/02/03/health/astrazeneca-vaccine-transmission-gbr-intl/index.html

@TheDailyCarbunkle

I find it interesting how not taking a vaccine is considered a 'selfish' choice, when shutting down the entire economy, forcing people out of work, denying children education, creating a budget deficit that will haunt our children for their entire lives, destroying careers and livelihoods in a way that massively impacts younger people, ie the people in the least amount of danger from covid, is considered - what - unselfish?

It is unbelievable to me that people are expected to sacrifice and sacrifice and sacrifice to extent of taking a medication that they personally don't need and may have unknown side effects that have long term health consequences, and people are genuinely calling them selfish for not wanting to do that.

What the fuck is wrong with people???

I don’t understand this at all. What is the correlation between your first paragraph on lockdown got to do with it? You can have two selfish acts, one does not negate the other.

And the reason we all need to take the vaccine is because it’s our way out. It’s a pandemic. We need to stop the virus spreading to such an extent the nhs can’t cope and people are dying on the streets of being denied treatment. The vaccine is clearly safe. No one wants lock down to continue. If everyone refused it, we would be proper fucked.

@TheDailyCarbunkle thank you so much for your post.
I probably will be vaccinated eventually. But I'm not 100% for all sorts of reasons. I really am getting tired of the fact that anyone who even dares question the vaccine gets labelled as selfish. It's a form of bullying, and I don't know what the vaccine bullies are hoping to achieve? They will just make people dig their heels in.
I got attacked on another thread for saying I was upset about animal testing etc for the vaccine. I was accused of being selfish by one particularly unempathetic poster. Even after explaining I've had sleepless nights with worry about it, and that I have medical anxiety, said poster persisted. I'm on the brink of leaving Mumsnet because of it. It seems we're not even allowed to question or express anxiety about any aspect of the vaccine without being shot down with allegations of selfishness. It's weird, like a cult or something.
Your post is a breath of fresh air. Thank you again.

I agree that the vaccine reduces transmission, but that doesn't mean that we can force or bully people into medical treatment they don't want

Exactly. As I've said often enough on here, I have the vaccine to protect me. If you want to protect yourself, have it for you.

Lets not pretend that people get vaccinated for the good of society and encourage people to have a vaccine for their own benefit. Then, we are not just protected by having had it ourselves (lets remember protection is 100% against serious illness) but also by the fact that people around us are protected. But that is up to people to decide for themselves.

Anyway for the healthy under 50s this is all a bit academic at present...yeah I know loads of healthy under 50s have had the vaccine but not where I live.

the reason we all need to take the vaccine is because it’s our way out

We all don't. Take-up is very high. It's probably high enough overall to make a real difference. Lets give it to the people who want it and then start chasing those who don't or are ambivalent. The government has got this the wrong way round with the mop-up. Do the healthy under 50s and then start chasing up the ones who've not had it yet.

I don't think anyone should be forced to have it or that anyone will be forced

But I do think you should take all factors into consideration in making your decision not just your personal risk of getting COVID.

I'm an under 50 HCP. I've already had COVID and it really wasn't that bad. Very unpleasant but not life threatening. On a personal level I wouldn't really care if I got it again.
I had the vaccine pretty much entirely for the sake of my patients and the wider NHS and wider society.

I apply the same reasoning to my flu jab every year as do the vast majority of people who work in healthcare. The idea that you might have a vaccine for other people's benefit really isn't an odd or aversive one to me and I think most people expect it of healthcare people and would judge us if we didn't do it.
Therefore I think it's fair that reasoning should apply to the rest of the population too

Refuse it if you like. It is absolutely your choice so own it but to expect no criticism about that choice is not a reasonable expectation.

The problem is e.g. schools - a 17 yo has been vaccinated What happens if they sit next to a positive case?
If we concede that they are highly unlikely to either catch Covid and even less likely to pass it on, does the school allow that particular 17 yo to stay in school and only send home the unvaccinated for 10 days?
Same scenario in other workplaces etc.
Makes like difficult for track and trace, and requires a formal system for demonstrating proof of vaccination.

(IMHO obviously and logically vaccination makes it highly unlikely that you will pass on Covid to casual contacts while wearing a mask, perhaps more likely in a household setting where people are in v close contact)

Refuse it if you like. It is absolutely your choice so own it but to expect no criticism about that choice is not a reasonable expectation

I can’t agree with this as social pressure amounts to coercion. We’ve gone down a road of vaccination being virtue signalling and people are being singled out and bullied, it’s wrong and it’s also wrong to pressure people to reveal their status.

I also don’t believe anyone should be forced to habe it. But i also feel it’s unrealistic to expect to go Uncommented on the fact.

There should be a sociatal pressure for people to get it, very few people get vaccinated becayse it’s all about them, many of us do it, because we understand fully that the more people who are vaccinated the quicker society gets back to normal and the less the virus spreads, further protecting those at risk. It’s in everyone’s benefit.

When you rely on everyone else to get it, and you sit back and reap the rewards, then people will comment on the selfishness of this. Particularly if you’re running round gobbing off about how it’s untested and could be dangerous and clearly have not taken any time to actually research it.

I think, following the announcement yesterday, we should be singing from the rooftops that it does.

The immediate household of those with CEV conditions were on the original (November) draft MHRA/JCVI list as priority 6 for vaccination. This was suspended, awaiting evidence on effect on transmission.

Yesterday, we were re-instated!!!!!!

It's not coercion
It's just that people are entitled to express opinions on other people's decisions on vaccination that do actually affect the whole of society

Certain behaviours are disapproved of eg smoking is more frowned on now than it used to be and that's a good thing because it paved the way for an indoor smoking ban which has reduced rates of lung cancer. It's your choice if you want to smoke but you can't expect people to necessarily support you wholeheartedly in that choice and never critique you.

Would you be OK about Drs, nurses and care home workers refusing the vaccine? Or is it OK if social pressure applies to them?

As you point out there is any easy way to avoid any criticism just decline to reveal your vaccination status or to participate in any discussion. That's something everyone has a right to do

But to say that people can't express a pro vaccination opinion on a debate site like Mumsnet without it amounting to 'coercion' is just bizarre.

^I don’t understand this at all. What is the correlation between your first paragraph on lockdown got to do with it? You can have two selfish acts, one does not negate the other.

And the reason we all need to take the vaccine is because it’s our way out. It’s a pandemic. We need to stop the virus spreading to such an extent the nhs can’t cope and people are dying on the streets of being denied treatment. The vaccine is clearly safe. No one wants lock down to continue. If everyone refused it, we would be proper fucked.^

Posts like this genuine send chills down my spine. What you're saying is that given the completely and utterly unfounded threat of 'people dying the streets' you are being held prisoner, and the only 'way out' is for you to be injected.

Can you hear yourself?

In no country in the world, not even Brazil where there is pretty much zero response in terms of lockdowns etc have people 'died on the street' due to covid. You've been scared shitless by an made-up apocalyptic scenario to the extent that you can't even consider that vaccine producers are human beings, not gods and can just as easily make mistakes/not realise the outcome of their actions as the many other medical professionals who have unintentionally caused injury and harm in the past. As far as producers of the vaccine know it's safe. They have absolutely no way of knowing whether an unforeseen side effect will emerge in the future. Chances are, it won't, but believing for certain that it won't is bonkers and not based on any evidence at all.

For some people, taking a vaccine may make sense on balance, whatever risk the vaccine might pose may outweigh the risk of covid.

But for many people being asked to give up literally everything, even being able to see their own friends and family and then being told to be injected with something that's only just developed and has no proven track record of safety (I mean a track record of years not months) when the personal risk of not taking that medication is very low is not just a step too far, it's a fucking million miles too far.

The zombie-like tunnel vision around covid is frightening.

OTHER THINGS EXIST.

Firstly I didn’t say it’s incorrect to voice a pro vaccine opinion, what is wrong is bullying and labelling people selfish either virtually or IRL.

You cannot say you believe in bodily autonomy and in the same sentence say you also think that people should be pressured into a medical treatment they do not wish to receive.

It has been long established that every person has the right to choose or refuse medical treatment.