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And so it begins - with pubs?

635 replies

MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/03/2021 22:36

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

Some rather good points raised in the article to be fair

OP posts:
SamW98 · 25/03/2021 12:33

@jessstan2

I get you, SamW. I used to like to go to a gastro pub sometimes, especially for a roast. Actually my son just 'phoned and said we could go soon. Pubs are more than alcohol.

We'll be able to do go before too long.

Thank you.

Many local pubs are the hub and heart of the community. Our local does breakfasts, coffee, pensioners lunch club etc - I know a lot of older people have struggled without that opportunity to get out and have a social meet up once a week.

I can't wait until I'm sitting outside the local with a plate of food and a glass of wine talking nonsense with a few good friends

LucilleTheVampireBat · 25/03/2021 12:34

I'm shocked how many people are looking down their nose at people for wanting to go to the pub like everyone is a raging alcoholic. lets face it its cheaper and easier to drink at home if its just about alcohol

They have been like this throughout. The complete dismissal of anything that is considered remotely fun. "Can't you live without going to the pub" or "Can't you cope without going on holiday". There is no thought behind it and absolutely no consideration given to the jobs and livelihoods that the hospitality, tourism and travel industry provide.

It is used as a way to virtue signal. Pat me on the back, I am a superior person because I don't want to go to the pub, or go on holiday, or see my mum. I will be told when I can work, or leave my house, or sit on a bench and if you question it I will call you selfish.

CautiousBlonde · 25/03/2021 12:41

[quote Unsure33]@SidSparrow

Yes and they still are nutters

Why would you decimate an economy for that reason.

It is ridiculous.

Vaccines are not compulsory
They are not going to be compulsory
It is up to individual businesses what they do to try and minimise risk to the public and staff.

I hope that vaccines Or testing become compulsory for foreign travel .[/quote]
It’s part of the big reset

Belladonna12 · 25/03/2021 12:49

[quote MaxNormal]@Belladonna12 This is my actual life. I've battled with life changing health complications for three and a half years, lost my career, been through hell.
I've now had months of absolute misery and uncertainty wondering just how much more social exclusion is going to be my new reality - and believe me I have plenty already, I can no longer drink, I no longer get invitations to the pub anyway so that's a pretty moot point, and I have no money for going out drinkingnow, but I can also very easily see pubs just being the start.

If you truly are a healthcare provider, I am so glad you are not one of mine because the silver lining for me in all of this is the kindness and compassion I have had from several consultants. They can't fix me but the kindness goes a hell of a long way.[/quote]
Are you seriously complaining that I called you random on MN when that is exactly what you just called me? What on earth has your miserable year got to do with my statement that there are very few people that can't have the vaccination. This document may be helpful if you want to discuss it with your consultant.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/961287/Greenbook_chapter_14a_v7_12Feb2021.pdf

MrsHastingslikethebattle · 25/03/2021 12:51

@LucilleTheVampireBat

I'm shocked how many people are looking down their nose at people for wanting to go to the pub like everyone is a raging alcoholic. lets face it its cheaper and easier to drink at home if its just about alcohol

They have been like this throughout. The complete dismissal of anything that is considered remotely fun. "Can't you live without going to the pub" or "Can't you cope without going on holiday". There is no thought behind it and absolutely no consideration given to the jobs and livelihoods that the hospitality, tourism and travel industry provide.

It is used as a way to virtue signal. Pat me on the back, I am a superior person because I don't want to go to the pub, or go on holiday, or see my mum. I will be told when I can work, or leave my house, or sit on a bench and if you question it I will call you selfish.

100% agree with this and what @thefallthroughtheair said.

If you don't want to go to a pub, restaurant, gym, and you don't feel that their safe, then don't go.

The rest of us who want to go should be allowed come May once over 50s vaccinated.
We shouldn't be called selfish, pubs are more than just alcohol.

MaxNormal · 25/03/2021 12:54

@Belladonna12 how would that discussino go? Hi Mr Consultant, a very rude person on the internet has suggested that I discuss a document with you even though we've already had a discussion on the subject five days ago?
What exactly would that achieve?

I am so incredibly grateful that, if you're really a medic in any way, I don't have to see you.

MaxNormal · 25/03/2021 12:55

@Belladonna12 and why do you, who know nothing about my medical history, feel better qualified to advise me on whether or not I should be getting vaccinated than my actual doctor does? That is breathtakingly arrogant.

twelly · 25/03/2021 13:00

Not everyone will be vaccinated for many reasons, we live in a country that values choice. Choice to vaccinate, choice to go out , choice over our lives - this has already been eroded we need to move back to freedom

bumbleymummy · 25/03/2021 13:03

@MaxNormal because these days anyone who mentions that they're not having this vaccine gets accused of being an anti-vaxx conspiracy theorist trying to sow doubt in the whole campaign.

Sorry you've had such a crap few years. I hope you can get out and about again soon - without restrictions.

Nerdygirl · 25/03/2021 13:10

Sorry to hear that @5128gap.
I suspect many wanting further infringement haven’t been impacted like you . I hope things get better for you soon

MistressoftheDarkSide · 25/03/2021 13:10

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/25/plans-to-let-pub-landlords-check-covid-status-face-backlash

Morning all,

A little late to the party today after another restless night laced with mild depression leading to "what's the point of anything anymore" thoughts which I fight with gritted teeth every day because resilience or something Confused

So having checked the press updates this morning I see that the theme of dropping a controversial idea via a "leaked" anecdote through the press which has dominated the whole pandemic has been used here. This of course allows Boris to say "Well it was just an idea, nothing to see here, moving right along" now that the pub industry, his opponents, civil rights campaigners and a fair proportion of Joe Public have gone "Eh? Are you NUTS?"

I did have a bit of a kneejerk reaction to it all myself when it broke, so very late it seemed last night, but I am having slightly more sensible thoughts this morning, though my gut feeling is still a bit closer to irrational - has anyone else noticed that many people have more extreme reactions to things related to the pandemic than might be usual for various issues? It might be a psychological effect worth investigating I feel - but I digress.

I have RTFT so apologies if I repeat things PPs have said very eloquently previously. Very reassuring that people are doing good analysis and seeing the flaws in this plan.

First of all, if this allegedly somewhat "off the cuff proposal" is being proposed as a public health and safety measure, it is utterly non-sensical. The only thing that might work to do this is masks and social distancing. It is dubious whether having the vaccine prevents transmission in any meaningful way - as others have pointed out it is known to prevent serious disease and hospitalisation, so it is not a magic bullet to prevent transmission, so effectively, proving your vaccination status only shows you have protected yourself and the NHS, not the wider community.

The next bit is of course providing proof of negative virus status via a recent test. This makes slightly more sense, however, except in work / school related settings, or perhaps if your entire household has tested positive, why would you take a test if asymptomatic? We had one symptomatic case in our household after Christmas. We dutifully isolated, but the other three of us had no symptoms. So we're in the realms of having to prove we're not a carrier / capable of utterly unwittingly transmitting the disease. Which all gets a bit Typhoid Mary if some poor sods repeatedly test positive with no symptoms (eg my poor MIL who tested twice in her care home with no symptoms at all thank God, the second time three weeks after her first jab).

So we're in the realms of the general populous having to test themselves every time they want to go to the pub, or do anything in fact if we get to the stage of other businesses wanting to exclude anyone with no proof of a recent negative test.

Part of me sees the value of that, as it would give the government a very clear picture of how this virus affects different people, transmission etc. However, as I say, if it is discovered that some people may be long term carriers but asymptomatic with a risk of transmitting it, a two tier society is still a possible result - if you have to responsiblt SI till you get a negative test, and you test positive repeatedly, you're a bit stuck aren't you? How do those people live? How does that affect the economy? Where does it end?

We haven't seen any evidence of this yet, of course, so I am wildly hypothesising, but if this hasn't been looked at maybe it should be. Also if it has been looked at, why haven't they released any info about it?

All of these things shout very loudly to me that this "proposal" is nothing to do with public health and safety.

So from an economic point of view for the pubs, it looks like a fabulous carrot on the surface - be stringent in your data collection and enforcing compliance and you can ram your establishment to the gills with no fear of government reprisal. AND no farting around with limiting numbers, table spacing yadda yadda yadda, which impacts how many staff you have on etc (DIL works as a pub supervisor so i have a little insight into how things were going when pubs were open - in her words a fucking nightmare).

BUT the industry appear to be as much in opposition to it as well. I can see why. A blanket legal health and safety directive from the government saves pubs from making individual decisions - if people kick off about a measure, you've got the de-escalation tactic to use of "Sorry mate, our hands are tied and we don't like it either" hopefully resulting in a bit of empathy from the complainer. If LLs are expected to make their own choice, not so easy - and if pre-loaded drinkers turn up en masse, it's a recipe for disorder, possibly needing police intervention tying up resources etc..... it has the potential to be quite the can of worms.

Then you have the issue of who's been able to have the vaccine versus who hasn't because of the schedule, and those who are currently medically exempt. And the smug vaccinated opining that it will only be for a few more months, etc etc.......while they sup their chilled pints snuggled up with a crowd of other smugs, inevitably leading to tension between the two camps. And as others have mentioned, the effect on unvaccinated staff, because they're young etc has to be considered.

All in all, to me it seems more like a compliance test in theory, rather than a serious proposal, and as we are "a nation of drinkers" it's the ideal ground to get the most widespread and vocal response.

Hypothesising again, if this was to be extended to independent retailers like myself, and I had to administer and police it I might not bother re-opening. I know alot of my old customers very well, and there is a raft of them with various conditions that might make them high risk for the vaccine. I don't want to have to make my customers uncomfortable, that's if any of them are confident enough to go out at all.

I've got Sky news on and have just heard Boris back pedaling so hard on the pub issue he's probably back somewhere in the middle of last week before this was even a coherent thought.

Also they're voting on extending general powers generated to control the pandemic later today, and some are supposed to last as far as October - only caught a bit of that so need to have a quick look at it all properly.

Honestly, the "path out of lockdown" is beginning to look more like an obstacle course with a side order of the Krypton factor.

Sorry for the long ramble, I just like having somewhere to put down my thoughts, and enjoy the virtual interaction.

OP posts:
MaxNormal · 25/03/2021 13:12

@bumbleymummy thank you. I really need to come away from MN for my own sanity I think.
I'm definitely not trying to put anyone off having the vaccine.

5128gap · 25/03/2021 13:17

@Nerdygirl

Sorry to hear that *@5128gap*. I suspect many wanting further infringement haven’t been impacted like you . I hope things get better for you soon
Sorry, didn't mean to imply it was worse for me than for many others. My point was that after we have lost so many of our fundamental rights in the name of covid (in a way that every now and then feels almost surreal) it would be very surprising if people considered the proposed pub requirements to be the hill to die on.
WitchesBritchesPumpkinPants · 25/03/2021 13:24

@AlecTrevelyan006

First it will be pubs

Then it will be restaurants, cafes, cinemas, clubs, theatres, music venues etc etc etc

Compulsory vaccination and vaccination passports by stealth

It's no big secret, it's openly talked about.

Those places will need vaccine certificates/passports or testing on entry. I'd rather just show my VC/VP. It's not a big deal

Until all adults have been offered the jab, it'll be certificate or testing.

RhubarbTea · 25/03/2021 13:38

@Sstrongtn

I have no issue with them having my data. We are well into a technocracy and that’s nothing I can change about that.

I have every issue with being coerced into a medical action on my body.

It makes me not want the vaccine. We will absolutely undermine the social contract that has always been there in the U.K.

This! Honestly if I was dithering a bit it would just make me come down hard on the side of 'Err, no thanks, not for me'.

It's such a concerning development and I genuinely couldn't sleep properly last night because I was so worried about what the hell is happening to this country and to our freedoms.

cgirl16 · 25/03/2021 13:57

I am pregnant, and getting the vaccine tomorrow, so it doesn't follow that pregnancy equals automatic non vaccination. I am classed as ECV due to a couple of other mild conditions but my consultant says he expects the official guidance to change soon to recommend it to all pregnant women, as COVID seems to have the potential to be very serious in this population - especially in late pregnancy.

JSL52 · 25/03/2021 13:59

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

How are they going to sort out vaccine passports? The ship has sailed on that one. They don't have the wherewithal to sort it out in retrospect- should have been given them with the vaxx.
I got a card with when and what I'd had.
canigooutyet · 25/03/2021 14:09

Unless the card has your picture on it's worthless isn't it as prove?
I could borrow a card from a friend who wants a night in.
Buy some similar card and knock one up at home

Of course the argument could be well everyone would need photo ID with your card, this would price people out.

Belladonna12 · 25/03/2021 14:52

@cgirl16

I am pregnant, and getting the vaccine tomorrow, so it doesn't follow that pregnancy equals automatic non vaccination. I am classed as ECV due to a couple of other mild conditions but my consultant says he expects the official guidance to change soon to recommend it to all pregnant women, as COVID seems to have the potential to be very serious in this population - especially in late pregnancy.
Yes, I'm sure it will change.
Belladonna12 · 25/03/2021 14:56

[quote MaxNormal]@Belladonna12 and why do you, who know nothing about my medical history, feel better qualified to advise me on whether or not I should be getting vaccinated than my actual doctor does? That is breathtakingly arrogant.[/quote]
Where have I advised you personally Hmm. All I have said is that there are very few people who cannot take the vaccine. I don't need to know your medical history to be correct on that point . It is also made in the green book which also only mentions hypersensitivity and pregnancy. The product characteristics give the same information.

Belladonna12 · 25/03/2021 14:59

[quote MaxNormal]@Belladonna12 how would that discussino go? Hi Mr Consultant, a very rude person on the internet has suggested that I discuss a document with you even though we've already had a discussion on the subject five days ago?
What exactly would that achieve?

I am so incredibly grateful that, if you're really a medic in any way, I don't have to see you.[/quote]
The Green book is the official book on all vaccinations in the UK.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 25/03/2021 15:21

www.theguardian.com/film/2021/mar/25/curzon-cinema-looks-into-vaccine-only-and-no-jab-only-screenings

Oh hello.

Looks like a wider discussion is opening up. My concern is that currently there is a perceived moral value attached to the vaccine over and above its actual purpose. Will the have nots, for whatever reason be horribly subject to judgment and condemnation? I wonder......

OP posts:
MaxNormal · 25/03/2021 15:38

@Belladonna12 fortunately skilled clinicians are able to recognise complex cases and not just go by the general guidelines, which is a relief for those of us with complex medical backgrounds.

CautiousBlonde · 25/03/2021 15:41

@penguin23

My husband said all this would happen a year ago, his family pretty much all stopped talking to him, calling him a conspiracy theorist. Now they're all talking worriedly about it like my husband never said a word about it, no acknowledgement that he was right.

People are sleepwalking into this, the implications of all this will go further than anyone realises. I am not an anti-vaxxer (hate that term!), whole family up to date with them all, but being coerced into medical treatment and having it forced by means of denying you access to employment, leisure, possibly even education, leads me to the conclusion that something is very very off about it all!

Totally agree
SamW98 · 25/03/2021 15:43

@MistressoftheDarkSide

www.theguardian.com/film/2021/mar/25/curzon-cinema-looks-into-vaccine-only-and-no-jab-only-screenings

Oh hello.

Looks like a wider discussion is opening up. My concern is that currently there is a perceived moral value attached to the vaccine over and above its actual purpose. Will the have nots, for whatever reason be horribly subject to judgment and condemnation? I wonder......

Vaccine Apartheid - coming very soon

Just look at Israel to see where this is going