And so it begins - with pubs?

[MistressoftheDarkSide]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/24/pubs-should-decide-whether-to-demand-vaccine-passports-pm-says

Some rather good points raised in the article to be fair

@Crabbypaddy

A vaccine that doesn’t stop you getting it...can we all just remember this important fact ha

Doesn't prevent one from getting it or spreading it. Just (hopefully) prevents one from dying of it. I knew about the first two, asked GP before my first jab. GP is immunocompromised, and recommended this one on the grounds that those of us with compromised/suppressed immune systems really need to take this. CV can be nasty/kill you.

Passports: pubs and such have always been able to refuse entry to anyone they pleased. We've already avoided /refused invitations to places on the grounds they were indoors/super-spread type places with no masking. (Invited out to eat during "EOTHO": No thanks.) Our idea of hell is to be wherever lots of other people are. We never went to pubs in the first place, though. Especially not Spoons (TM Is a nasty piece of work, so refuse to use his establishments on principle).

PPs mentioned the cards provided when one has the vaccination. Those are supposed to be kept safe. GPs aren't going to have time to make any passport/certificate, so I very much doubt that will happen.

Quite why people are so desperate to get out to the pub is quite fuddling. I'm a carer. Crowded places where people don't have to mask for whatever reason are the *last place I want to be. I knew early last year that CV would mean no travelling last year, and as CV has progressed and evolved, it's fairly clear that life has changed considerably.

I've no idea *how this is all going to pan out, but I do think this is going to last for a long time yet. My husband had his first CV jab yesterday. Second due in June. So that'll be the over-50s "fully" vaccinated. Given that those vaccinations are 12 weeks apart, it's going to be autumn before everyone is fully vaccinated, no?

I will happily stay at home and keep my money if this happens. I will not be forced to have a vaccine to spend my money! I will not be forced to share medical details with someone at a pub! Crazy. Unworkable. Unethical.

@ChristinaYang10

I hate this so much, the idea of any forced/coerced vaccination.

(And no, I’m not anti vaccine, I’ll have it as soon as I’m offered it and I volunteered to be in the trials. I am just strongly against anything like this)

Same here. I've had my first jab, so I clearly have no issues with having the vaccine. But I hate the prospect of a two-tier system, coercion into vaccination in all but name, and the unfair impact on the younger generations.

@Countrylane

I am pregnant - and I am not sure the "oh but pregnant women won't be allowed in argument" holds up. Frankly, I am really not keen to get Covid at 8 months pregnant, so unless I can be pretty sure - via some sort of passport scheme - that everyone else in the pub has been vaccinated, I probably won't go anyway. We can get proof that we're pregnant from midwives anyway - for sorting mat allowance - so surely we could just use that to go to the pub. You basically just want everyone in the pub to have herd immunity, so if the occasional pregnant and therefore unvaccinated person wants to go, that shouldn't be a problem.

But the vaccine's don't fully prevent you from getting it or transmitting it so it doesn't matter if everyone in the pub is vaccinated or not.

Lots of pregnant women are going to be more at risk from their own older children coming home from school every day than some random person in the pub.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

If pubs have to "police" it does anyone think they really will? All of them?

In the earlier situation they were supposed to restrict numbers to a set limit and serve at tables only. Did not happen in many pubs!

I am shocked too @LucilleTheVampireBat.

Shows how easy it is to manipulate mass populations . I cannot believe people cannot see the way their freedoms are being eroded, they are being bullied and coerced despite the government even telling us how they are employing behavioural engineering to do this

This is a moderate to mild disease for the majority of people. Chris witty has repeatedly said this. The measures being taken are not proportionate to this so why are more people not asking why?

There is no other mild disease in the world we mass vaccinate for for such a low ifr. Measles etc is much higher . Why then covid?

Not sure why everyone is commenting on this as though the proof of vaccination would be the only way to get into the pub or club.
The article clearly says or proof of a negative test.
Genuinely can't see the problem as long as its either/or.

@MmeLaraque firstly no, pubs have never ‘been allowed to refuse entry to anyone they pleased’ what an absurd idea. It’s not someone’s home? It’s a business and they have to abide very carefully to discrimination laws.
Secondly- you are fuddled by why people want to be in crowds? Maybe because they like the buzz of lots of people? Maybe because they want to meet new friends or partners? Just becuase you like being somewhere quiet away from people- that doesn’t suit many people? I love to be in a busy place

@MaxNormal If I wasn't allergic, my consultants suggested I don't have it because of a lack of data about certain health conditions and medications. There could be contras and would rather err on the side of caution. We aren't alone, there are others facing a similar dilemma. Mine from everything they have available to them are also confident that I still have antibodies from having Covid.

You get used to exemption questions and of course suggestions of many alternatives because of that magical keyboard power.

@Nerdygirl

I am shocked too *@LucilleTheVampireBat*.

Shows how easy it is to manipulate mass populations . I cannot believe people cannot see the way their freedoms are being eroded, they are being bullied and coerced despite the government even telling us how they are employing behavioural engineering to do this

This is a moderate to mild disease for the majority of people. Chris witty has repeatedly said this. The measures being taken are not proportionate to this so why are more people not asking why?

There is no other mild disease in the world we mass vaccinate for for such a low ifr. Measles etc is much higher . Why then covid?

In the last year I have lost my right to work, to leave my home, to allow people onto my property, to allow people to touch me, to sit down outside.. People are probably a bit desensitized to the infringement of rights arising from having to prove they don't have covid to get into a night club.

I'm shocked how many people are looking down their nose at people for wanting to go to the pub like everyone is a raging alcoholic. lets face it its cheaper and easier to drink at home if its just about alcohol

I think people forget that many of us don't have a partner, have worked from home, been furloughed or not been working for the last year and so have been pretty insular and isolated

I can't wait to sit in a beer garden again asap and not for the sake of drinking, but I just want to interact with my friends again.

I will opening admit that in the summer I did EOTHO at least twice a week and not once did I feel unsafe, crowded in etc. The places I visited had spaced out tables, one way systems and I felt more comfortable than in any supermarket

Between lockdowns, I have been as sociable as possible. I went to a few outdoor dance events which were socially distanced in Rule Of 6 groups - it wasn't the same but it felt like freedom to get out and dance

All most of us want is to meet up with friends and family again - being on our own has taken its toll on mental health and I worry that the fallout will be huge

@Hardbackwriter

Steve Baker, the Conservative deputy chair of the Covid Recovery Group of lockdown-sceptic MPs, said it was deeply concerning.

“Whether the state legislates for it, recommends it or simply allows it the result will be the same,” he said.

“A two-tier Britain that prevents pregnant women from taking part in society, given that the government is telling them not to take the vaccine, or one where we turn back the clock and tolerate businesses turning away customers from communities which have shown an unfortunate hesitancy to take up the offer of a vaccine. We must not fall into this ghastly trap.”

Oh God, I agree with something Steve Baker said. I feel like I need a shower.

I've been feeling like this about Steve Baker for a while. Its very discombobulating.

@HarrietOh Yes, but my point is that I'm infinitely safer if I know everyone else in the pub (apart from other pregnant women and people allergic to jab) have been vaccinated. It hugely reduces the risk to me (sounding selfish, but there we go) if there are vaccine passports. It's not perfect - but it's a massive step up from a random mix of vaccinated/unvaccinated.

Surely there will be provided proof of exemption by your GP that doesn't go into detail

Have you tried getting an appointment with a GP?
Tried to get an appointment at many of the hospital clinics?

Another poster asked why the NHS (tax payers) should pay for antibody tests for those who have natural immunity, so do you really think Joe Bloggs is going to be happy about the money and time spend to also write exemption letters? And if GP's are doing those for free, then surely the current travel vaccine programme would have to be free?

You do realise though that even with the passport they could still have Covid?

[quote Countrylane]@HarrietOh Yes, but my point is that I'm infinitely safer if I know everyone else in the pub (apart from other pregnant women and people allergic to jab) have been vaccinated. It hugely reduces the risk to me (sounding selfish, but there we go) if there are vaccine passports. It's not perfect - but it's a massive step up from a random mix of vaccinated/unvaccinated.[/quote]
If pubs were open today and you went in one, in a random sample, 50% have been vaccinated anyway. By the time pubs are actually open that figure will be 70%+

So negative tests or proof of vaccination is pointless - and massively disproportionate to the issue at hand

@Nerdygirl

Utter lunacy - in a blink of the eye we move more and more to a police stare for a virus that is mild as quoted by whitty for the vast majority

Am I alone in thinking all sense of proportion has gone out of the window. I suspect if we didn’t have social media and 24 he news coverage this would have been a totally different situation

Your not alone.

I, from day one, have thought the lockdowns were a disproportionate response to this virus.

First lockdown, hmm ok, it was new but this 3rd one (after winter which cases will spike with respiratory virus' anyway) is totally blowing it way out of proportion.

The over 65s contribute to over 90% of hospital admissions and deaths. They are vaccinated now, the vaccines are proving effective against variants.

Its completely bonkers to have this going on any longer.

@MaxNormal

I do have medical qualifications. It is only contraindicated in those with hypersensitivity. And obviously not advice for pregnant women at the moment

I'll be sure and tell my consultant who has said I shouldn't have it that some randomer on MN who claims to have unspecified medical qualifications, disagrees with him then shall I?

@pinkearedcow he didn't specify, he said it as a bit of an aside then changed the subject.

Said by a randomer on MN with an unspecified medical condition and a consultant with unspecified qualifications who says that they can't be vaccinated.

I get you, SamW. I used to like to go to a gastro pub sometimes, especially for a roast. Actually my son just 'phoned and said we could go soon. Pubs are more than alcohol.

We'll be able to do go before too long.

It sometimes feels as if there is an element of snobbery or lack of understanding of individuality in many posts about this sort of thing. Those people who can't imagine why someone would want to be in a pub, or out with people generally, and don't like that or don't feel 'safe' (whatever that means), the solution is surely for you not to go to pubs etc. Then those who don't think of every human as a disease vector and would like to go out can do so without upsetting people who disapprove.
So it's 'stay home', but with the responsibility to do so on those most obsessed with Covid, which remains of low risk to many and against which those with any realistic risk have now been vaccinated.

@thefallthroughtheair agree with your post massively.

@Belladonna12 This is my actual life. I've battled with life changing health complications for three and a half years, lost my career, been through hell.
I've now had months of absolute misery and uncertainty wondering just how much more social exclusion is going to be my new reality - and believe me I have plenty already, I can no longer drink, I no longer get invitations to the pub anyway so that's a pretty moot point, and I have no money for going out drinkingnow, but I can also very easily see pubs just being the start.

If you truly are a healthcare provider, I am so glad you are not one of mine because the silver lining for me in all of this is the kindness and compassion I have had from several consultants. They can't fix me but the kindness goes a hell of a long way.

@thefallthroughtheair

It sometimes feels as if there is an element of snobbery or lack of understanding of individuality in many posts about this sort of thing. Those people who can't imagine why someone would want to be in a pub, or out with people generally, and don't like that or don't feel 'safe' (whatever that means), the solution is surely for you not to go to pubs etc. Then those who don't think of every human as a disease vector and would like to go out can do so without upsetting people who disapprove. So it's 'stay home', but with the responsibility to do so on those most obsessed with Covid, which remains of low risk to many and against which those with any realistic risk have now been vaccinated.

Totally agree with every word - well said