Telegraph is reporting vaccine to be compulsory for care home workers

[bathsh3ba]

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/22/care-home-staff-face-compulsory-covid-vaccination/

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of making any vaccine compulsory....

Thoughts?

@Maverickess here here!

@Maverickess

Eloquently put. Love it love it love it.

I’m beyond shocked people see it as some form of punishment or judgment and they should be free to deliver personal care to vulnerable people whilst posing an increased risk to their lives

The punishment and judgement element is coming from people like you with comments about the government needing to step in because care homes can't be trusted to do the right thing.

I'm beyond amused that you've said that, and then keep preaching that it's not about judgement or blame, it won't be about judgement and blame when people like you stop judging and blaming care staff, and insisting that the government has 'made up' for the complete balls up they have made of this, by throwing some gloves and aprons our way eventually, getting us tested 4 times a week and making residents and care staff a priority for vaccination, and are now required to step in and make care assistants do the right thing.

In the news story posted above, 9 people have sadly died, awful, and if people really have been wilfully neglectful and infected people when they knew they shouldn't be at work, then they should be held to account.

I wonder how many people died as a result of shipping positive patients out into homes and lack of PPE? And why I'm so wrong to feel those responsible for that should be held to account too?
I wonder if their families feel that what's come too little and too late, is 'making up' for the loss of their loved ones?
I wonder if people will feel the same way if there two are convicted, that they've 'made up' for those 9 deaths by donating some PPE to that home and not going to work again when they're infected? Or would rather they faced proper justice for what they've done?

The punishment and judgement element is coming from people like you with comments about the government needing to step in because care homes can't be trusted to do the right thing

Wtf? There has been care workers all over the media complaining they don’t get the correct ppe, they can’t afford to be off etc. No, some nursing homes can’t be trusted, what are you under some illusion that they are all centres of excellence and every single member of staff beyond diligent, and the outbreaks were some form of mystery?

@Bluntness100

The punishment and judgement element is coming from people like you with comments about the government needing to step in because care homes can't be trusted to do the right thing

Wtf? There has been care workers all over the media complaining they don’t get the correct ppe, they can’t afford to be off etc. No, some nursing homes can’t be trusted, what are you under some illusion that they are all centres of excellence and every single member of staff beyond diligent, and the outbreaks were some form of mystery?

I'm not under that impression, I know there's bad places out there, and I don't know why the wtf? You said that care homes can't be trusted and the government has had to step in. Not some care homes, care homes, the overall tone is care workers don't care, and the government are being forced to step in and do something. That's utter bollocks, considering how they've behaved in general to the sector, and it's a patronising and down right offensive attitude towards the majority of care workers who have gone above and beyond for 12 months, and the majority of which have been vaccinated. No we didn't get the correct PPE, we can't afford to be off. Unfortunately that's the standard that people feel is suitable for the people looking after some of the most vulnerable in society. It's a fact that some people live. I'm sorry you're so offended by carers complaining about things that should have been in place to keep the residents safe the very thing you're advocating mandatory Vaccination for.

And it is no mystery where the outbreaks have come from
-Staff transmission
-admissions from hospital and other settings without testing, in large numbers from hospitals to clear 'bed blockers'
-transmission from visiting HCPs like community nurses and dr's, physios, ot's that visit other settings, and undertakers, essential repair/workmen, undertakers, paramedics.

• from visits to other settings deemed necessary to attend.

Those things need to happen still, the people in care homes need those people's input into their lives, it's essential or it wouldn't be happening.

Despite what was well documented at the start of this, why are you so determined to blame care workers and ignore what the government and NHS did? Because despite keep saying it's not about blame, you are blaming.
No, not all care workers are perfect, but they haven't risked people at the level the government and NHS have.

Are you Matt Hancock or something because you're very sure of what you think has happened in care in the last year.

They are free to find other employment, it’s not compulsory. Would you want aged parents exposed to unvaccinated people? And some old people can’t be vaccinated due to preexisting conditions. I believe some care workers work in more than one setting, which is potentially really bad.

This is mind boggling. Beyond mind boggling. How anyone can think it’s ok for unvaccinated people to work with the extremely vulnerable is beyond me.

I agree all staff should be vaccinated, but also that the data probably over estimated the problem. When we do a dive into the unvaccinated individuals in my dept at work (NHS hospital) the data is more complex- some were shielding and done by community faster (not reflected in local trust data), many came down with covid in Dec/jan before vaccines rolled out and were within 4 week recovery window, or are still off recovering. Or wanted to wait a few weeks to fully recover. One had a PEG allergy and waiting for AZ etc - these are all people fully intending on getting vaccinated but just not accounted for in the data which is just an unvaccinated list.

A large number of front line staff couldn’t be vaccinated quick enough and were so happy to be done and some of the sceptics in department (who seemed to be in admin side and occ nurse) said they were persuaded by seeing lots of senior clinical staff having vaccine without hesitation.

Maybe because care homes are smaller, with fewer senior nurses/medics that they can become an echo chamber of dissent. Ultimately I think the vaccine may need to be mandated, but there should be concerted effort at gentle persuasion and addressing fears in community.

There are several vaccines that are compulsory if I wish to continue to work as an ICU dr.

I’m perfectly free to work in a range of other areas if I object.

There are also expectations around my behaviour as a dr in public and on social media that could result in me losing my job.

I’m astonished there are people who think their employment carries no restrictions at all.

@Maverickess

You wonder how many people died in a care home setting due to covid being introduced from a hospital setting. Well, our sister home had a patient returned from hospital as positive for covid. The next two weeks 28 out of 41 patients died of covid. Also several staff off seriously ill.
Yes, it could have been introduced by a member of staff, but unlikely as to up to them the home had been covid free and only staff allowed on site.
Coincidence- maybe. But my opinion is it wasn’t. However the care staff got the blame. This is a care home with no provisions to isolate residents from each other and all residents with some from of advanced dementia and no capacity.

There are several newspaper reported outbreaks and deaths from covid in care settings. I always wonder if the same scenario happened to them. Doubt it will ever be found out. Sadly the papers always report that somehow the outbreaks are linked to bad care staff - that they must have done something wrong.

For those of you who want it to be compulsory for all care staff to have the covid vaccination - why only the covid one? Surely you should be pushing for ALL vaccinations for transmittable diseases, not just the one. If you truly believe that it would make things better in this sector.
Also I’m curious to know - if you believed that you have a right to know if a hcp has been vaccinated - do I have a right to know if your child has been vaccinated when I work with them in a school setting? I suspect most people would say no, and this smacks of double standards. If the answer is no, then it really shows how little people really do think of hcp in care/nursing homes.

several vaccines that are compulsory if I wish to continue to work as an ICU dr

I guess flu isn't one of the compulsory jabs. 65-75% uptake in recent years for NHS staff who do direct patient care.

I wouldn’t be against compulsory flu jabs, hcp need to practice what they preach.

@Fluffycloudland77

Do hcp in care homes preach about flu jabs etc being mandatory?????????

There’s a campaign by the nhs every single year to encourage flu vaccination & part of it is free flu jabs for carers, paid & unpaid.

It’s unacceptable for hcp not to have a vaccination that is recommended for them.

The year the flu jab failed we had 40k extra deaths that year.

You are in fluffy cloudland!

It’s unacceptable for hcp not to have a vaccination that is recommended for them.

Unacceptable to whom? Clearly it is accepted because it happens year after year. When you say hcp, are you including care workers as that is who this thread is about?

I have to go out now but I will return to add mind-boggled to the list of phases Bluntness has gone through. I'm really quite excited to see what's coming next.

@bathsh3ba

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/22/care-home-staff-face-compulsory-covid-vaccination/

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of making any vaccine compulsory....

Thoughts?

I don't see the issue personally, wouldn't you rather your loved ones be looked after by those taking every precaution not to infect them with covid. I had my vaccine and will have It yearly if needs be, I'm not a believer of the conspiracy theories or the it's not safe theories

Unacceptable for the people they care for. Unacceptable to the unborn children they carry & unacceptable to the young children in their care.

Just because it happens doesn’t mean it ought to happen.

Why wouldn’t a hcp or carer get a flu jab?. Do they want the residents dead?.

@Fluffycloudland77

There is a nhs campaign for the flu jab for a whole heap more of society than just carers paid or unpaid. Still plenary of people don’t have one for free. Perhaps they should be mandatory for EVERYONE. ?

Then you go one about the extra number of dew tags when the flu jab failed - so why bother in the first place. As people had an unnecessary medical procedure and people still died. Given the flu jab is at best at good guess as which strains will circulate - why bother at all. The covid jab is also likely to go down the same route. - so why bother with a best guess in ovulation which may not prevent deaths?

I would still like to know if anyone would object to anyone working in school insisting in all children being vaccinated. What is good for one portion of society is good for another portion of society. However I suspect that children’s medical stays must be at all costs protected whilst to hell with carers bodily autonomy. Yet in both situations there are medically vulnerable people who should be protected, and could be by all those surrounding them having all their vaccinations.
So why do you want hcp in care homes and those carers paid and unpaid to have the vaccine, and no mention of other settings were it would be just as beneficial. What is so different about carers paid and unpaid that they should be forced to have this covid vaccination and no other vaccination and not other sections of society.

@Fluffycloudland77

Unacceptable for the people they care for. Unacceptable to the unborn children they carry & unacceptable to the young children in their care.

Just because it happens doesn’t mean it ought to happen.

Why wouldn’t a hcp or carer get a flu jab?. Do they want the residents dead?.

Plenty of reasons why someone would not want a flu jab or any other jab. All private to that individual. We live in a society built on free choice.

Well the flu campaign is aimed at those most likely to die & those who have professional contact with them but yes I agree with you everyone should have it and it’s one less thing to worry about each winter because Flu, being zoonotic will always be a threat to humans.

I don’t like it when I work with hcp who haven't had a flu shot because their going to “wait and see”. Wait for what exactly? Massive epidemic? Handwritten letter off the Chief Exec “please have it done Nurse Smith I couldn’t go on if we lost you to flu the whole Dn team would collapse” or they’ve never had flu so it’s not worth bothering with.

I worked with a Carer two weeks ago who was furious with her daughter for going out & socialising because she might bring covid home but she’s refused the vaccine. Neither is doing the right thing.

She may have perfectly legitimate reasons for not having the jab. No one has the right, nor should they, to know what those reasons are, nor the right to judge those reasons or force them to have the vaccination. You either enforce EVERYone to have EVEEY vaccine or allow peoples to make their own choices. Societal segregation by injection is not a route we should be going down.

You have a free choice not to work with vulnerable people if you don't have the vaccine

The vulnerable person does not have such a free choice. They can't walk away from being vulnerable

If an immunosuppressed child was an inpatient and was being cared for by a nurse who didn’t believe in vaccines and passed flu on to them would that be ok though? Or should they do the best for those in their care.

Technically my dh could’ve refused a covid vax and he’s suffered for having it by feeling unwell but I think in his current condition covid would definitely kill him so he’s had it. It’s the lesser of two evils by a long shot.

These vaccines do not stop you getting the disease or passing along the disease. The aim is to make it a less dangerous disease for the vaccinated person - not anyone else. Plus you can have the covid vaccine and still be asymptomatic and pass the disease along. Neither are a good enough reason to force someone to have the vaccination.
Some vaccinations such as chicken pox, measles and flu simply don’t work for some people, (no way of telling who until too late) or in the case of flu- the wrong strains are chosen. Still not a good enough reason to force people to have vaccinations. It should still be education and left to personal choice.

If you force care staff into this - then you should also force all visitors to homes to have the vaccine and all residents. Or so they have magic immunity?