Telegraph is reporting vaccine to be compulsory for care home workers

[bathsh3ba]

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/22/care-home-staff-face-compulsory-covid-vaccination/

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of making any vaccine compulsory....

Thoughts?

Very shocked at the small number of people thinking people should have a right to continue to work in a care home unvaccinated and pose an increased and potential fatal risk to thr vulnerable residents. That they think their right to work there and remain unvaccinated trumps the residents right to live, because that’s what it boils down to and in some way the government trying to protect the residents from these people is wrong.

One in 10 (140000) NHS workers have refused the vaccine.

The fact is if you're making it mandatory to care workers then you need to make it mandatory for everyone unless no one in care ever ventures out and meets other people.

Visitors should be refused entry unless they are vaccinated.

Care users should be denied a place unless they are vaccinated.

Where do you draw the line?

And AGAIN for those at the back - not all care homes are for clinically vulnerable people!! Why should it be a blanket rule for 1 entire sector when actually you're more likely to get it from Maureen on the fish counter in Morrisons who has to serve 100's of people a day handling food/cash etc than you would be in some residential settings?!

Of course unvaccinated people are entitled to work, unless of course you plan on subsiding every single person who can't receive it. But then I'm sure you'll say that's fine - they're the exception to the rule because herd immunity bla bla bla - but herd immunity doesn't distinguish between those that can't and those that won't. A risk is a risk.

Should everyone be encouraged to receive it? Absolutely.
Should those that don't be shunned from society? FFS no.

And let's not forget that health & social care is one of the few industries that workers actually have to pay to work in (atleast here in Scotland).

No one in their right mind would do that if they weren't interested in the people they care for!

Bluntness, are you also shocked at the high number of people who think there should be no curb on international flights in spite of the potential impact on climate change? Which could lead to a higher death toll globally than Covid?

Or do you accept that people see it differently to you?

What do you think of the care companies who don't want it made law? Are they shocking too or maybe they are taking more things into account than you and thinking it's not the best approach overall to keeping their service users safe and well cared for.

Sorry, I'm out all day but I am really interested on why so many people are so dogmatic about this so I'll check back tonight.

Chillychangchoo
I am a support worker. A lot are worried about the fertility myth. It’s done a lot of damage. If it wasn’t for that most of the refusers I know would have accepted the vaccine.

I agree it's a big factor but don't you think it can be addressed in ways that don't alienate a workforce that already feels underappreciated? (eg. Meghan saying she got vaccinated before she got pregnant, or AN Other Insta famous BME woman)

When you have a service user who doesn't want to do something that's in their best interest, do you go for "You have to do it" or do you use empathy to address their underlying problem? The biggest thing you have going for you is the trust you build up with your service user.

Mandatory vaccination will erode trust. There are other ways to get the majority vaccinated. If you can persuade carers that will be better for overall outcomes. I don't think you need 100% vaccination for the risk to drop dramatically. If the risk ends up being lower than flu then are the Mandatory Vaxxers going to move on to compulsory flu jabs next?

Covid is not the only thing that leads to bad outcomes for cared for people. Alienating your workforce is an extreme step and could have unintended consequences.

@PreachyGreen

I disagree. Service users needs come first as they simply do not have the choice about who they are exposed too. Many of the service users I care for are bed bound. The carers have the choice to have the vaccine or not, but in this industry it’s negligence. They are always free to find work in other sectors. The service users do not have that choice or control over their lives.

@TheKeatingFive

And how has the government and care providers addressed this? By floating an idea that care workers need to be forced to have this vaccine because they have a duty of care they're not taking seriously.

No one is suggesting that this move is supposed to solve all the problems in the care industry.

It's to limit, as far as possible, the impact of a deadly disease that has devastated the industry in the past year.

Should other measures be taken to improve the quality of care for the elderly in this country? Of course.

No but it's quite cleverly side stepped the issues that have made covid so much worse than it should have been, because people are aghast at the thought that 25% of care workers have 'refused' the vaccine, and want to lay into the care workers over that.

I'd like to see a breakdown of that 25%.
In my home there were 3 workers who didn't receive the vaccine on the date it was set for the local surgery coming in to do our vaccines. That are officially recorded as receiving the vaccine because they're a care worker.

2 because they were within a 4 week window of having a positive covid result - and they won't vaccinate you if you are within 4 weeks. 1 because she was off sick with an unrelated illness, and it was arranged through her own GP, because of her illness.
That's about an 80% uptake in the vaccine, on paper, among staff for our home. No one refused, no one.
The 2 that are left have appointments, they'll be done soon.

So 80% uptake on the day the vaccine was supplied to the employer, 0% refusal.

How many, realistically of the 25% of care workers nationally that are not vaccinated, are actually refusing? Or not yet vaccinated because of other reasons? or cannot be vaccinated? Or are vaccinated but not through their employer and therefore not recorded on that day as being a vaccinated care worker.

As I said in a PP, there has been a headline recently, local to me, that
"12% of care workers refuse vaccine!" What they further say is that 12% of care workers haven't taken the vaccine at the time it was offered at the place of employment, and makes no mention of those who couldn't be vaccinated at the time the vaccination was provided to their employer because of covid positive results or other issues that meant arrangements have been made elsewhere, considering the numbers of people testing positive, the 12% that are being said to be refusing, could have a large element of 'couldn't be vaccinated yet' rather than flat out refusing.

Considering how early on in the process this is, that I'm waiting for my second dose, and that's not been arranged yet, why are we jumping to the conclusion that large numbers of care workers are refusing? Why is legislation being floated based on assuming that?
The law can force me to get my vaccination, but their own rules state that if I test positive for covid today, my second vaccine can't be done for another 4 weeks, yet I become part of a statistic that's being used to insinuate that care workers need forcing to have it at all, because I will simply be unvaccinated.

@Bluntness100

Very shocked at the small number of people thinking people should have a right to continue to work in a care home unvaccinated and pose an increased and potential fatal risk to thr vulnerable residents. That they think their right to work there and remain unvaccinated trumps the residents right to live, because that’s what it boils down to and in some way the government trying to protect the residents from these people is wrong.

I'm very saddened, though not shocked, that some people are insisting this is the major problem when it comes to the issues that have happened around covid and care homes, and not the policies and system that have caused so many deaths already, so early in a vaccination program where a large number of people in care are still waiting for the second vaccination!

Alienating your workforce is an extreme step and could have unintended consequences.

Exactly, I'm feeling alienated despite the fact I've actually been vaccinated, because of the way this has all been presented and termed, and directed towards care workers being the ones failing, again, and a way to ignore the much bigger issues, that are a result of policy and poor management of the sector as a whole, when you look at it under the light of covid.
This issue has highlighted the lack of knowledge in what happens in care, that so many seem under the impression that covid is just one more thing to be vaccinated against, when no vaccination requirements have existed for care workers before now. It's not something that you enter the job with a clear expectation of happening. That will be different now, which imo is a good thing, but it has never been an across the board expectation of care work.

I would have no issue with this approach, If it were alongside changing other things that will have far greater benefit in controlling the spread of covid through care homes. But it's not, it's being used as a single prong attack, and aimed at 25% of a workforce.
If the aim is to improve care standards, then there's far more effective ways available that will have a much deeper effect, than forcing some people to have the vaccine, or eliminating them from the job. It's small fry, and very cost effective, compared to the things that need to be done to control this better.

Care assistants have been made the target here, to turn opinion away from looking at the real reasons why covid rips through care homes.

@littlebillie

One in 10 (140000) NHS workers have refused the vaccine.

And there is nothing like the same level of criticism and abuse directed at them, compared to that thrown at care home workers.

Has there been any mention of mandatory vaccination for carers who visit clients in their homes? If that has been suggested I would assume the same will be applied to all healthcare staff who are required to make home visits. I'll wait with interest to be given reasons why 'that's different'.

@BamboozledandBefuddled

Has there been any mention of mandatory vaccination for carers who visit clients in their homes?

I have assumed they are automatically included. But yes, you're right, there's no where near the outrage at the NHS staff refusals of the vaccine. And the fact that the same rules should apply, yet the proposed legislation has been directed at care workers only, not anyone who works with vulnerable people within the whole health and social care umbrella.

As someone who has a grandparent in hospital seriously ill due to covid, who caught in the care home she resides in, it's a no brainer for me. I'm glad they're adding it to the list that those who work in healthcare have to have.

Years ago when I worked as a ward hostess handing out food and drinks I had to have the hep C vaccine I think and also the heath test to check I had immunity to TB 🤷

@Bluntness100

Why should I be forced to have a vaccine that could potentially damage my baby?

“Why should I be forced to have a vaccine that could potentially damage my baby if I personally want to keep working there?”. There. Fixed that for you. Ans the answer has been given on the thread multiple times. Because the vulnerable people you care for need to be protected and they are not there through choice. Unlike you.

well the fact is more than half of the workforce where i work are young females who are likely to be pregnant breastfeeding or ttc, who work for minimum wage , doing things not very many people want to do, laying out dead bodies, personal care, all the time being spat at, being regularly physically and verbally attacked, there is always more than 25% unfilled job vacancies at any time, good luck with finding anyone who on top of that has to agree to sign over their right to decide what to put in their own body. Where do you think all the extra people are going to come from who will do this? They cant even get enough agency workers to do this job there certainly isn't a long line of workers ready and eager to take it on. Perhaps you could volunteer for a few shifts

And as I said before I have had the vaccine, however im not going to judge anyone who doesnt

I wonder what effect there would have been on the events of the last twelve months if this overwhelming concern for 'the vulnerable' had been so apparent in our society before anyone had heard of Covid. What a tragedy that the majority didn't give a fuck back then.

BamboozledandBefuddled

Exactly no one gave a crap before covid started at all. Now look at them all saying about care assistants. Half people on here wouldn't do it. The pay is terrible and the work is long long hours.

I work as a carer in the community because i enjoy the job and am good at it but the way we are talked about as if we are so disposable makes me want to give it all up tbh. I work alone, in challenging situations for very little pay and people act like a trained monkey could do it. We'll just draft people in from the hospitality industry with no interest in the field when dedicated carers leave and pretend its in the name of protecting the elderly.

It just makes me laugh that we're painted as the selfish ones if we won't get the vaccine (i have), even though everyone perfectly happy for us to care for their relatives while not even making enough to live on. I can't even bubble with anyone because I can only afford to live in a houseshare with strangers yet I'm supposed to give up my right to chose whether to have a medical procedure so i can continue helping others. Whose helping us??

Thumbs up for what User...124 just said.

@lljkk

Thumbs up for what User...124 just said.

Seconded. I'm sick of seeing the job described as 'unskilled'. Off the top of my head a carer needs empathy, tact, tolerance, endless patience, first-class time management skills, the ability to multi-task and think on their feet, and excellent communication skills. Ideally, they also need good health and physical fitness but many carers have had that destroyed by bad working conditions. If people have a skillet like that and are prepared to take a job for minimum wage, it's because they love what they're doing. It isn't for the money and it clearly isn't for gratitude. But obviously none of that counts.

As for the suggestion that some posters in here should get out there and do the job, dear god NO! Aren't things bad enough?

I really can't get over this attitude that the government are having to step in because care workers can't be trusted. After everything that care workers as a whole have done this year, this is how they're regarded?
They're accused as a collective of being selfish and unable to make a decision based on 25% being unvaccinated when we're so early on in a vaccination programme that was only invented 6 months ago? Pregnant women being told that putting their baby at risk from something where there's no data to support it being safe or otherwise, or losing their job and income is an acceptable price to pay? Really? When some people on the other hand are refusing to wear a bloody mask in a shop and everyone thinks that's fine?

This 12 months care assistants have dug in, they've put on PPE that they know won't bloody well protect them because it's substandard crap, and that's when they got it, and gone in to covid positive patients, and cared for them until they die, with no medical knowledge, no specialist training or knowledge on how to deal with Covid sufferers.

They've had to make those phonecalls to loved ones and tell them their relative is dying and no, I'm sorry but you can't visit, even now because they've got covid.

They've been shouted at and blamed when they have to turn relatives away from the door and done it with compassion and empathy.

They've had to go home knowing they could very likely infect their own family and there's sod all they can do about it.

They've worked double and treble shifts, given up days off and annual leave so residents are cared adequately for when colleagues are off sick.

They've done checks, via video link with a doctor to confirm death in a patient they've cared for.

They've cried with emotion when kindly people in the neighborhood have clubbed together and sent PPE in to protect them because there was none available, or when local businesses have sent food, deodorant, hand gel and cream in for them.

They've stood in long lines after 14 hour shifts to be faced with empty shelves because people got so sniffy about them being allowed to jump the queue.

They attend work however many times a week (3 for me) when not on shift to get tested, at their own expense and not being paid for their time either in most cases.

They've supported residents to use technology that they've never used before so they can keep in touch with their loved ones and stood next to them at windows to support them, then offered a shoulder to cry on afterwards when the residents are understandably upset at that being the only contact they can have.

They've also been under the same restrictions as everyone else, not seeing their own family and friends, not being able to unwind or zone out for an evening.

They've lost residents, colleagues, family and friends of their own. And carried on.

And that's before you get to the basic nitty gritty of the practical side of caring for people.

They've done it for minimum wage, with no perks, they've ended up in debt because they've been paid SSP after catching covid at work and having to be off. And then they've gone back and carried on.

And they've done it, and continue to do it despite being thought of as expendable by society, unskilled, uneducated.

The government have -

Sent people into care homes that hadn't been tested and only revised that when society kicked off.

Introduced testing 6 months in.

Diverted PPE supplies to the NHS because they hadn't got their arses into gear soon enough and they needed it there.

Banned all visitors for a year, with nothing even attempted to be put in place to facilitate it.

Paid SSP only for covid positive care workers, then implemented that they could be paid full pay (8 months later), for a positive test and only once. Not if you have to isolate because you've been exposed through other means and legally need to isolate, and not if you get it again.

Considering implementation of mandatory covid vaccination for care staff only, not the NHS, not allied professions like social workers, not anymore else, just care staff.

You tell me who's met their duty of care there and who's failed to.

@Maverickess

Bloody well said.

But you missed the bit where the govt and Nhs tried to blame care workers for the outbreaks in care homes. Refusing to acknowledge their own policy of knowingly sending covid positive patients into covid negative homes, they putting other residents and care staff at greater risk of catching covid due to all the other reasons regarding ppe you’ve mentioned.

maverick bravo. Post of the year.

@Maverickess Best post ive ever seen on this board.

Mavericks very good post.Now.allof.you who think you have a idea what carers go through every day read this.

Sick of people's attitude towards carers and doubly fed up of the government. Yes we care for the vulnerable. But no one. Cares for the carer.

But you missed the bit where the govt and Nhs tried to blame care workers for the outbreaks in care homes

Well i expect that from our Government. My expectations of them are low But the NHS?