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Telegraph is reporting vaccine to be compulsory for care home workers

398 replies

bathsh3ba · 23/03/2021 07:03

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/03/22/care-home-staff-face-compulsory-covid-vaccination/

I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of making any vaccine compulsory....

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Bargebill19 · 26/03/2021 05:25

@MercyBooth

Yep nhs. Our local hospital just put them in an ambulance and sent them straight back to us ASAP regardless of covid status. The. Phone is to warm us they were coming and if they were definitely positive or suspected positive. Often it was too late as by the time we got the phone call, they were sat outside in an ambulance.
Older care homes are often open for residents to be able to wander ie they don’t have separate entrances or lockable internal corridor doors. So any positive patients would be wheeled through common areas, and other resident wandering at will can easily enter other residents rooms. Great for transmitting virus readily around a closed population.
Please do not say staff should stop residents wandering. A) it is their home b) dementia patients do not understand when they are asked not to do something - like stay in their room or main sitting room. C) there are never ever enough staff available to keep an eye on every resident every single moment of the day. Eg 48 residents met only have 3 staff on all night.

Bluntness100 · 26/03/2021 06:01

Maverick no one is disputing that care workers did a fantastic job. Making vaccinations compulsory is not some form of punishment for them. .

It is simply about protecting the residents. You cannot have on average 20 percent of staff in a care home unvaccinated against something so transmissible and with such a high fatality rate in the vulnerable. Their lives are at risk. Much more so than their carers. And we need to protect the weak in our society.

Yes we need to take other measures. Yes no one likes a pandemic, illness and death. No one wants this to have occurred, our economy decimated, our population needing vaccines like this. But that’s where we are, the pandemic happened, and we are dealing with a virus that kills

It’s not about how well care workers did their jobs. It is not about attributing blame. It is not some sort of punishment to vaccinate them. It is recognising the proven risks and mitigating those risks, protecting the residents as much as possible from contracting Covid.

nonono1 · 26/03/2021 06:25

It is simply about protecting the residents. You cannot have on average 20 percent of staff in a care home unvaccinated against something so transmissible and with such a high fatality rate in the vulnerable. Their lives are at risk. Much more so than their carers. And we need to protect the weak in our society.

I agree Bluntness. I can’t actually believe that anyone would argue otherwise? Confused

Police have arrested two care home staff from the Sidmouth home on suspicion of “wilful neglect” now: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56529279

Nine people died Sad

nonono1 · 26/03/2021 06:32

But yes, you're right, there's no where near the outrage at the NHS staff refusals of the vaccine.

I actually feel angry about this as well. Again it’s people working in a caring capacity wilfully putting their patients at risk - and that is wrong. Someone mentioned erosion of trust earlier... this will erode my trust in the medical profession. I don’t want to sit in a cramped surgery with a doctor who hasn’t had the vaccine. Will we have the right to know who has and hasn’t had it?

chocolateorangeinhaler · 26/03/2021 06:46

What are you uncomfortable with?
You not dying
Your patients not dying
Care homes closing because everyone who would go in them has died after catching covid from a career?

We're you vaccinated against, polio, tetanus, etc.

Would you be uncomfortable having a yellow fever vaccine if a country you wanted to holiday in demanded it or no entry? But then if it suits I guess you would.

You are being quite ridiculous, if you think you are in any way free in this world. The device you type any response to this on and your credit/debit card paint the complete picture of your life, why do you think governments let us have that tech?

Bluntness100 · 26/03/2021 07:19

Again it’s people working in a caring capacity wilfully putting their patients at risk - and that is wrong

This is just too simplistic. Firstly by not being vaccinated arguably you are will fully putting residents at risk. Secondly, as said, this is not a judgment or punishment of care workers, it’s simply about protecting the vulnerable in the midst of a global pandemic.

There is no doubt residents caught Covid from their carers. Either due to them not knowing they had it, or being unable to take sick leave and taking a risk due to the financial implications. It’s not a judgement. It doesn’t mean all cases were from their carers, it is simoly a fact. You cannot have unvaccinated people caring for the extremely vulnerable when you can prevent this happening. You cannot discharge infected patients into homes. You need to protect the residents.

I’m beyond shocked people see it as some form of punishment or judgment and they should be free to deliver personal care to vulnerable people whilst posing an increased risk to their lives.

PreachyGreen · 26/03/2021 08:27

Blimey, "beyond shocked" now. I wonder what stage comes next.

Your problem is that you can't understand different people have different perceptions of risk, that and you think your perception is always the right one.

It is not one unjabbed person = one case. If it were then you'd get a higher take up.

What's your view of the care company managers who say they don't want it made law?

Also, did you get this worked up over care home employees not having the flu jab? If Covid rates go lower than flu are you going to transfer your shock, sorry beyond shock to flu jabs?

Heatherjayne1972 · 26/03/2021 08:32

Certain jabs have been mandatory in dentistry for decades
Hep b
Tetanus
For example

Very much no jab no job We aren’t insured to work without it- either by our own indemnity or the employers And yes we have to provide proof
Eventually The Covid jab will be the same in all healthcare

Why would care homes filled with very vulnerable people be any different ?

PreachyGreen · 26/03/2021 08:33

I feel a bit mean now Bluntness as it's the attitude that's annoying me rather than you personally. You just happened to be the latest person expressing it.

I would genuinely like to know if people who think like this are the same about other issues eg climate change. Or it it just people see this as a one off thing they can tick off. Job done. Lives saved. Never mind any of the rest of the problems in care. Too complex to address so let's focus on this one thing in isolation.

PreachyGreen · 26/03/2021 08:37

Heatherjayne1972

Have a read up thread why. If you offer to pay care workers what dentists are paid there will be no problem. There will be no shortage of staff if it's made mandatory.

Eventually The Covid jab will be the same in all healthcare

Oh wow, I wish you'd let us know you could see into the future earlier. It would have saved us all this wrangling.

AppleJane · 26/03/2021 08:50

@ilovebagpuss

Good one of our staff has refused the vaccine gone home to visit her relatives overseas. Comes back expecting to work the next day (can’t afford to isolate unpaid) obviously is told to go home and isolate and tests positive. Could be a new variant she’s bought back could be a standard one but fact is she would have wandered back into a home full of vulnerable residents (yes most have had one vaccine). Some people are just not interested they don’t take it seriously still. If we lose the 10 staff out of our 180 that have refused to have it it won’t be a loss. That sounds harsh but it’s true and I’m not talking about those that can’t have it.

If you read the above quote and still don't think this is a good policy please explain why!

DenisetheMenace · 26/03/2021 08:53

ineedaholidaynow

Saying you have to have the vaccine for a certain job doesn’t make the vaccine compulsory for everyone. It’s just compulsory for that job.

I couldn’t imagine working in a care home and not having the vaccine having seen how the virus has ripped through them.”

This.

GreatBigBeautifulTommorow · 26/03/2021 09:08

@nonono1 I’ve just read that too.
I wonder if the arrested staff knowingly went to work with COVID?

I can’t imagine what else it could be?
Very sad that so many died Sad

PreachyGreen · 26/03/2021 09:13

AppleJane , lots of care workers have already explained why. You're just not interested in their contribution unless it supports what you've already decided.

Also, I don't usually decide which new laws are a good idea based on one anonymous contribution on a talkboard. In fact that contribution could equally well be used to argue for mandatory hotel quarantine for all overseas travellers but that's a less popular cause for some reason.

I couldn’t imagine working in a care home and not having the vaccine having seen how the virus has ripped through them but really you could end that quote after home and it would still be true for most of the posters on this thread.

I'd love to know what proportion of posters on this thread are bothered about what goes on in care homes at any other time or will show any interest in recruitment if the law gets passed.

Violetlavenders · 26/03/2021 09:16

Will we have the right to know who (doctor, carer etc) has and hasn’t had it?

I would hope that patients do have the right to know if their doctor or career has been vaccinated.

bumbleymummy · 26/03/2021 09:46

I think proof of immunity (which would allow for immunity after infection too) and negative tests would make more sense if this is about safety. The vaccine doesn’t guarantee protection so if you’re genuinely worried about risk then you shouldn’t just assume that someone is protected simply because they’ve been vaccinated.

AppleJane · 26/03/2021 10:55

@PreachyGreen (great name)

* If you offer to pay care workers what dentists are paid there will be no problem*

You're making this all about money. Care workers are definitely not paid enough but it is a moral issue too. And quite frankly, if they are on zero hour contracts it's all pointless arguing because they will just choose staff who are vaccinated.

AppleJane · 26/03/2021 11:00

BBC documentary 'COVID: Who Got It Right?' spoke to a man in Sweden who discovered his relative in a Swedish care home with covid was being given 'end of life' treatment. The family intervened, got him the correct treatment and he recovered. Makes you wonder what's been happening in our care homes for the last year.

lljkk · 26/03/2021 11:20

If we lose the 10 staff out of our 180 that have refused to have it it won’t be a loss.

it won't be good for staff morale or resident care for the facility to have a permanent additional 5% staff shortage on an ongoing basis. There's also question of sustainability; will someone make sure the staff have constant 'in date' vaccination certificates? Should flu jabs also be required (and kept in date) among all health & social care staff? Who will pay for monitoring all that, given NHS & Social care staff are normally far behind in their 'mandatory' paperwork, should they prioritise jab checks over all the other mandatory training etc. documents that they have to track for individual staff.

It's not like a 'mandatory vaccination' policy would have zero cost and only benefits. People are going to have make choices about where the resources go. The persons who track the paperwork are often highly clinically qualified or experienced care managers, not simple administrators. They have valuable skills that shouldn't be wasted on admin but that is exactly what will happen.

Fooling yourself if you think it can all be tracked neatly & painlessly online.

Violetlavenders · 26/03/2021 11:35

The persons who track the paperwork are often highly clinically qualified or experienced care managers, not simple administrators. They have valuable skills that shouldn't be wasted on admin but that is exactly what will happen.

So it would make sense to employ an administrator without the highly qualified care skills. There are plenty of people looking for jobs like that.

lljkk · 26/03/2021 11:39

Unlikely to happen, Violet. Social care is massively underfunded sector. And would need to be someone who gets all the DBS & is allowed to see highly confidential files.

But yes, we could literally almost double our tax burden & finally fund the health & social care sectors "properly" to achieve many perceived benefits. That is a choice that could be made, assuming almost every company doesn't decide to tax domicile elsewhere and destroy the revenue streams anyway.

PreachyGreen · 26/03/2021 12:02

Violetlavenders

I would hope that patients do have the right to know if their doctor or career has been vaccinated

Someone on one of the previous threads about this was...I think a manager in the NHS...and said she couldn't give that info out. So a law would more or less fix that issue but damage so much else that I'm still not in favour.

Anyway I agree with bumblemummy's point that actually that may not be the best indicator of safety anyway.

AppleJane

The money would get more people applying for the jobs people leave. It seems like some regions/ companies have achieved high vaccination rates but if only 50% of care workers are vaccinated in some London boroughs then there will have to be some rocket fueled recruitment drive. Dentist level pay would help with that.

Vaccination is a moral issue like cigarette smoking/ gambling/ obesity / climate change. We don't say "Ban smoking: save lives. Simple. Pass a law. Job done." I don't understand why this isn't seen as complex like those issues are.

I just read a local town council tried to turn down a MacDonald's planning application on the grounds it went against government strategy for obesity as it was near a school. Isn't that a simple issue? Ban MacDonalds for children and save lives. I'm sure most of this thread will be in favour of that.

Makes you wonder what's been happening in our care homes for the last year. There are posts and posters on this thread that will tell you and the common theme is that the care workers didn't have much control over what happened. Which is probably one reason for their lack of trust now.

There's lots of good point made on this thread. I just want to repeat lljkk's point which sums it up for me:

It's not like a 'mandatory vaccination' policy would have zero cost and only benefits.

There's a reason not all care companies are going that route.

Iliketeaagain · 26/03/2021 15:31

@Violetlavenders

Will we have the right to know who (doctor, carer etc) has and hasn’t had it?

I would hope that patients do have the right to know if their doctor or career has been vaccinated.

What else would you like to have the right to know? Any other vaccinations? Any previous drug or alcohol issues? Any mental health issues.

A person's medical record is confidential and thats they way it should stay. Or are we going to remove that basic right from carers too.

If someone asked me if I'd had a vaccine, I'd say yes (it's true), if someone asked me if the person from my team visiting them at home was vaccinated, it would be a "sorry, I can't share that information".

At some point you weigh up the risk, not just of covid, but of declining the care you might need. You might feel it's right to know, but if your loved one was in pain, needed urgent social care, would you decide they could have health or social care irrespective of a vaccination status or would you ask to delay until a vaccinated health or social care staff member could get to you?

Bearing in mind that they may not have "refused vaccination" - they could have been advised to to have it, they could be early pregnant and not wanting to share that information, could be 3 weeks post covid and advised to wait until 28 days until vaccinated. How much of someone's confidential medical information do you feel entitled to know?

AppleJane · 26/03/2021 15:35

@PreachyGreen currently those who can afford to pay for care will choose places that have a vaccine policy. The poor will get no choice. Is that fair?

I totally agree that a higher wage will attract more skilled workers and that our elderly and vulnerable deserve better care.

Maverickess · 26/03/2021 15:45

@Bluntness100

Maverick no one is disputing that care workers did a fantastic job. Making vaccinations compulsory is not some form of punishment for them. .

It is simply about protecting the residents. You cannot have on average 20 percent of staff in a care home unvaccinated against something so transmissible and with such a high fatality rate in the vulnerable. Their lives are at risk. Much more so than their carers. And we need to protect the weak in our society.

Yes we need to take other measures. Yes no one likes a pandemic, illness and death. No one wants this to have occurred, our economy decimated, our population needing vaccines like this. But that’s where we are, the pandemic happened, and we are dealing with a virus that kills

It’s not about how well care workers did their jobs. It is not about attributing blame. It is not some sort of punishment to vaccinate them. It is recognising the proven risks and mitigating those risks, protecting the residents as much as possible from contracting Covid.

Bluntness, if it's not about blame, then why comments like yours about the government having to step in because care homes can't be trusted? That's the whole attitude, in a nutshell, that's the issue. That care workers are losing trust over, losing trust in the government and society. The attitude that's making me think I'm better off back out of the job I love quite honestly.

Less than 25% of care workers haven't been vaccinated, with a vaccine that didn't exist a few months ago. There hasn't even been time to fully vaccinate the residents and it to be offered to all care staff, I know this because the area I work in are still waiting for their second dose, NHS staff locally are just starting to have their second doses now.
No one can have the vax until 4 weeks after a positive test, so they are done elsewhere, at different times. They're not recorded as being done through their employer.
As I said in a pp in my place, 3 members of staff not vaccinated at the time everyone was done. But NO ONE REFUSED, 2 are still waiting for their first vaccination because they were within a 4 week window of having covid.
So how can there be any justification, when people haven't even had the opportunity yet to have the vaccine, never mind refuse it, for introducing a law of no jab no job? Why such a heavy handed approach for something that we don't even know it's a problem yet?
You can make this law tomorrow, but it won't mean that people within a 4 week timeframe can be vaccinated, or mean the very minute they go over that timeframe they'll be offered an appointment and vaccinated immediately.
They're just being reported as unvaccinated Vs vaccinated and then without knowing why, assumptions that that is entirely because of refusal are being made, and people like you are joining in with that, and accusing any unvaccinated care workers of being selfish and not protecting the vulnerable people they work with and should be out of a job, without thinking about the reasons why, you're just saying it doesn't matter why.
But how can anyone refuse something that they've been told they're not eligible for for 4 weeks, and then not offered anyway until there's a space?

Where's Matt Hancock's plan to tackle that then? Why's that not being mentioned at all as a reason why care workers at the moment might not be vaccinated? If it's all about protecting the vulnerable, why isn't this being addressed urgently? Why only address the refusals, for which we don't have accurate figures for anyway?

Why no approach at all to things that we do know are a problem, but can't be traced back to care staff, but rather bad policies and profit making, it's all about protecting the vulnerable isn't it? So where's the urgency about that? Is it less urgent because it costs money and because there isn't an easy target to blame?

When you're talking about responsibility and trust, it is about how well care workers, and the government have handled this, this is why people like me feel like trust is being eroded.
We were asked to step up, we did. Now we've been asked to again, and before we've even addressed the reasons why some care workers aren't vaccinated yet, the figure of less than 25% of workers being unvaccinated is being used as a justification for legislation, and calling any care worker who is unvaccinated selfish and failing in their duty of care.
Once it is guaranteed that all care workers have been offered the vaccine, and have been able to take it, and that non vaccination is absolutely down to refusal, is the time to address it, not before the vaccination programme is even close to being at that stage.

This will cause people to leave the job, not because of the vaccine itself, though I've no doubt that some will for personal reasons, but more because of how this has all been presented to demonise care workers who have done everything, within their very limited power, to protect the people they care for.
The rot in care comes from the very top, but as usual, the bottom level are the only ones people are interested in making changes too. And while that attitude persists, on a wider scale, nothing will change for the people who actually matter in this - the people receiving the care.

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