To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

Ah it’s two dose @PrincessNutNuts again. Don’t you get bored of this now ?

Princess that made me laugh. If you’d like the numbers you are free to look into it.

But wouldn’t you also have to find the extra people who received first dose only and are now still alive or not in hospital as a result?

Haven’t various scientific spokespeople says this approach has been vindicated. Can you find anyone who says not? I think Nabarro was one. There will be others. I thought it accepted generally in scientific community unless you have other info

@MarshaBradyo I wouldn’t bother engaging with @PrincessNutNuts about two doses. She doesn’t get the data. Plenty of threads like this.

@MarshaBradyo

Princess that made me laugh. If you’d like the numbers you are free to look into it.

But wouldn’t you also have to find the extra people who received first dose only and are now still alive or not in hospital as a result?

Haven’t various scientific spokespeople says this approach has been vindicated. Can you find anyone who says not? I think Nabarro was one. There will be others. I thought it accepted generally in scientific community unless you have other info

1.Yes, that's what the second part of my post says.

1. I hadn't heard that the rest of the world was doing it the same way now because all the world's the scientists agree. I can't find any info on that.

“Not being funny but even if - IF - it causes blood clots in minute numbers why would that be a reason to stop it? Stick it on the vaccine insert as a possible side effect and be done with it 🤷🏼‍♀️“

Just like that, as if it’s no big deal? If I’d have known it had the potential to cause death by blood clot I wouldn’t have had it. I’m pretty pissed about this possibility and not sure I’ll have my second dose.

@Blessex

Ah it’s two dose *@PrincessNutNuts* again. Don’t you get bored of this now ?

It's not Two Dose Princess NutNuts. It's a two dose vaccine.

For those interested in opinions of people with scientific and medical background : www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n699/rapid-responses

@UtzAreBetterThanNuts

There were few cases of extremely rare and dangerous adverse reactions in young people (related to blood disorder).

So the recipients of the Pfzier vaccine just had your bog standard but sometimes lethal clot event and non of the rare and dangerous blood disorder event seen in the AZ group ? Or did both occur in both groups ?
Has the blood disorder been named and has it occured more frequently than it would normally in the population ?
In Norway it seems to be that the young people effected had a low platelet count in common, so possibly an undiagnosed condition ?

[quote Blessex]**@MarshaBradyo* I wouldn’t bother engaging with @PrincessNutNuts* about two doses. She doesn’t get the data. Plenty of threads like this.[/quote]
True it’s too late for this. I suppose some people will always hold onto it.

I’m very glad we have the scientific knowledge here to take good decisions. I guess some won’t trust it and think it wrong / they know better.

@Jellykat I dont know if it is any reassurance, I am mid 50s and have a blood clotting disorder. It was far safer for me to have the vaccination than not.

I had the jab a couple of weeks ago with no side effects other than the normal.

[quote Blessex]**@MarshaBradyo* I wouldn’t bother engaging with @PrincessNutNuts* about two doses. She doesn’t get the data. Plenty of threads like this.[/quote]
Do please link to the data that says 60,000 dead since we started vaccinating on the delayed second dose schedule is a better result than we would have had vaccinating on the manufacturers recommended schedule?

@MarshaBradyo yep and especially as the AZ data now says that 12 weeks is the optimal gap.

Why this thread?

Did the EU or its citizens rub their hands gleefully when

Your country suffered much divide over Brexit?

Did they refuse to extend your exit dates when you couldn't agree on an actual exit strategy (numerous times)?

Did they shrug at the prospect of a no-deal and refuse to negotiate?

Where they smug when you were slow to lock down?

Or even when your dead tolls were horrific?

Why all the vitriol aimed at us? The halted vaccines are a problem for us, not you. It shouldn't concern you, it's not against the British.

@MarshaBradyo

Princess that made me laugh. If you’d like the numbers you are free to look into it.

But wouldn’t you also have to find the extra people who received first dose only and are now still alive or not in hospital as a result?

Haven’t various scientific spokespeople says this approach has been vindicated. Can you find anyone who says not? I think Nabarro was one. There will be others. I thought it accepted generally in scientific community unless you have other info

Many experts said this was the right thing to do!

It has come good as predicted by those experts.

I think aside from the political grubbling in certain EU states this is largely because of the mess in procurement to start and now national states are under pressure.

Also, the new EMA did not get the staff from
London. So really they are playing catch up and their approach is not informed by great experience. This would probably lead to the slower and more cautious approach you see.

Until Britain left the EU, it had the expertise to deal with this in London. That did not migrate when we left. It is the EU and it’s states who are having to catch up.

@PrincessNutNuts I agree. You only have to look at data from Israel, now Northern Ireland, some of French care home data & you see the two doses kick in & the sudden steep impact. It’s truly wonderful, hopeful stuff.
For all the cheerleading of first & fastest, this is not yet evident in the English data.

Cornettoninja
All that directly concerns me in the report, and my various health problems/ conditions..
Circulatory collapse 28
Vaginal haemorrhage 46
DVT 14
Circulatory collapse 28
Pulmonary embolism 13
Anaphylactic reaction 173
Atrial fibrillation 49
Myocardial infarction 25

Thank you GnomeDePlume, my problems not only include clots but a heart condition and a new severe allergic reaction too. I'm relieved your vaccination went well though.

@strudsespark
I think some egocentric Brits think the world revolves around them, you can't fix stupid.

A number of countries outside Europe have also suspended it whilst making further investigations. Three things strike me. 1) new vaccine 2) do I trust big pharma to fess up in a timely manner to ANY issue "no" 3) do I trust our government "no". However, I'll still be taking my vaccine this weekend.

[quote mac12]@PrincessNutNuts I agree. You only have to look at data from Israel, now Northern Ireland, some of French care home data & you see the two doses kick in & the sudden steep impact. It’s truly wonderful, hopeful stuff.
For all the cheerleading of first & fastest, this is not yet evident in the English data.[/quote]
Aren’t we starting to see steep drops, reported today?

What numbers are you comparing

@1234abzee

Sky news is reporting that France and Italy have admitted their ban on the AZ vaccine was political.

Leaders of both nations hav agreed they are reading to begin vaccinating with AZ again. They are waiting for the EMA to give the green light on Thursday.

But political in what ways?

Thats what I don't underhand

I don't think it's that the UK has done better vaccinations necessarily or that its part English company.

Is it political in the sense Germany/ Italy and France want to sell or produce more to boost their own economies as well as deflect from fact they entered into a eu buying scheme in the 1st place.

They have thrown a lot of mud and accusations.
Worried 3rd countries like Canada and Australia by threats export control's.
1st they say MHRA rushed to approve phizer then az.
They accused Israel of selling out peoples private medical data and privacy.
Then they accused UK if stealing thier az theres massive question mark over az vaccines made Netherlands site although eu the ema has not authorised the vaccines made there to be distributed in Europe only vaccines made in Belgium.
They dident believe az do they raided the factory and wanted to see other countries orders and export.
They published confidential contracts which can the end made them look like idiots as in the case if az it was best supply and they haven't taken legal action against az sweden yet I assume as they no leg to stand on.
They demanded vaccines from az UK sites that they haven't funded or assisted in the set up.
Then there was massive age row despite EMA saying was suitable over 60s nations like Germany decided otherwise so they ignoring their own EMA that said used all ages and not to half vaccinations yet.
Then they upset Australia by banning 250k az vaccines as apparently Europe needed them more.

The latest mud slinging was UK and USA accused of vaccine nationalism and that the UK had blocked vaccines and components of vaccines to the EU.
The UK only manufacture az currently.
A company in Yorkshire makes 4 key components to the phizer jab which I assume been sent to phizer factory in Europe as no use to us.
Italy doesn't even make the vaccine it just bottles it and blocked export.
Saw Spain said they support blocking exports and that are due to bottle j &j I think.
From a business pharmacy world seems risky to manufacture within eu whilst this export ban remains in place.
Can Australia take az or EU to court.
I don't see how they can legally seize a non state owned private companies vaccines just because they produced in Europe and they feel let down and decide which country's worthy if receiving the vaccine and they said Australia wasn't.

@Jellykat with that history are you under consultant care? Is there any chance of speaking to someone in your care team (if you have one) to ask if it is suitable for you to have the vaccine?

@Chailatteplease

“Not being funny but even if - IF - it causes blood clots in minute numbers why would that be a reason to stop it? Stick it on the vaccine insert as a possible side effect and be done with it 🤷🏼‍♀️“

Just like that, as if it’s no big deal? If I’d have known it had the potential to cause death by blood clot I wouldn’t have had it. I’m pretty pissed about this possibility and not sure I’ll have my second dose.

Well it’s not really a big deal is it given the numbers? The risk of blood clots, or worse, from Covid even in the lower risk elements of the population would probably still be way worse

1 in 425000 chance of a blood clot from a vaccine vis a vis a 1 in 1000 chance of death or serious illness from Covid... hmm

So a large part of reasons theres not enough az vaccines meet europes orders is the EMA still hasent authorised the Dutch plant helix.
Only the plant in Belgium is currently manufactured az so az i think got the serum institute in India to supply some .
To my knowledge the UK az factories haven't sent any as they part of UK supply chain.
The EMA have to authorise the 2nd EU factory

www.ft.com/content/8e2e994e-9750-4de1-9cbc-31becd2ae0a8

Canada / Australia not put off they still want thier az orders.

The UK MHRA the European EMA and the WHO all say az is safe.

amp.rte.ie/amp/1203746/

[quote mac12]@PrincessNutNuts I agree. You only have to look at data from Israel, now Northern Ireland, some of French care home data & you see the two doses kick in & the sudden steep impact. It’s truly wonderful, hopeful stuff.
For all the cheerleading of first & fastest, this is not yet evident in the English data.[/quote]
If it is, I haven't seen it yet.

To be honest I'd expect a full two flag briefing if we had anything close to an unequivocal sign that it's working like the timely two dose does.

Confidence will be restored? Seriously? You don't think that anti-vaxxers will be using this fiasco? You don't think that there will be lasting worries in the populace, because of the political decision to halt AZ vaccinations?

Its not a political decision because there is zero gain for Macron or any european leader, voters want rid of CV, pausing AZ achieves nothing.

Yes confidence will be restored, just as it has in any vaccine program ever.