To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

This thread is unreal! I really don't understand the why there is so much vitriol towards Europe from a lot of posters on every thread that has EU in the title. Why is everything seen as UK vs EU? As my daughter would say 'Who hurt you?'

If the rate of clot's is the same for those given the Pfzier vaccination , are the countries pausing the AZ vaccination, also pausing the Pfzier one ?
If this is about safety then you would imagine two very similar vaccinations, causing the same issue at the same level, would be dealt with in the same way ?

Pfizer’s actually slightly higher. No pausing.
Speaks volumes.

@OuiOuiKitty

This thread is unreal! I really don't understand the why there is so much vitriol towards Europe from a lot of posters on every thread that has EU in the title. Why is everything seen as UK vs EU? As my daughter would say 'Who hurt you?'

i don't think it's vitriol - it's more puzzlement and bewilderment

I'm going to admit, waiting for my vaccine appt date (late '50s) the news re clots and AZ suspension elsewhere made me look up the UKs yellow card reports summary..
I initially thought the suspension was purely political, but having seen the summary i'm wavering and shitting it quite frankly.

@DenisetheMenace

Pfizer’s actually slightly higher. No pausing. Speaks volumes.

Does anyone know why this is?

Someone who knows more about the data and regulator decisions

Denise that may have sounded negative! Didn’t mean you don’t know. More to the posters who think it’s right it’s paused.

@Itsalonghaul

EU spends time relaxing with cool drink because they are considered the big boys of the procurement playground, and AZ pharma will fall over itself to serve their needs.

UK runs a sprint and works hard to sign all contracts, breathes a sigh of relief and waits patiently the in queue.

EU realises it is now at the back of the queue, pushes itself to the front, pushing all other countries out of the way with its flick knife out threatening and insisting it needs to be at the front because it is SO important.

AZ Pharma teacher tells EU off, and EU is sent back to the back again kicking everything in its way.

EU Sulks and simmers and plots its way to the front, but nothing is working.

UK is served in timely fashion, EU is incandescent with rage. How dare that little fucker beat them to it. They deploy the minions to cause trouble, telling the rest of the queue that it is rubbish anyway, and how bad it is all is. Pharma AZ teacher remains calm and reminds EU that he need him, so quit the bleating. EU starts a fight in the queue and blames Pharma AZ teacher for all his troubles. It is the AZ Pharma that is terrible not the impatient and angry EU, it is all their fault for making EU so nasty and horrible, if only they had done the right thing and fast tracked them, none of this would have happened.

EU turns its back on the queue, it feels rejected and now says it doesn't want its medicine now anyway. UK and AZ Pharma feel sad for EU, it has a lot of growing up to do.

Uk govt started vaccinating people under dubious circumstances. Offering first jab, then moving the second part of the vaccination to a much later date, and going against scientific/vaccine advice.

UK govt have fucked things up so badly already, it's not surprising they'd blame this latest jiggery pokery on the EU. They blame most things on the EU. They always have. Fuck all to do with the EU, but hey, blame the EU anyway.

Today 20:38 MarshaBradyo

Denise that may have sounded negative! Didn’t mean you don’t know. More to the posters who think it’s right it’s paused“

No worries. I’m privy to no more than you. Possibly less.

Equally bloody perplexed though. No basis in logic at all (on the face of it). Would welcome an expert opinion.

Frightens me that posters are even now saying this has frightened them. There is no basis for that fear at all 🤯

Uk govt started vaccinating people under dubious circumstances. Offering first jab, then moving the second part of the vaccination to a much later date, and going against scientific/vaccine advice.

Didn’t it turn out to be a good decision? Which was led by scientific experts who knew what they were advising

UK govt have fucked things up so badly already, it's not surprising they'd blame this latest jiggery pokery on the EU.

Who is blaming what? What do you mean

The MRHA EMA and the WHO are saying no need to pause and not much else around blame

Didn’t it turn out to be a good decision? Which was led by scientific experts who knew what they were advising“

Yep, but again don’t let facts stand in the way of scaremonger feting.

Have to leave now. Tin foils are doing my head in 😁

@Jellykat

I'm going to admit, waiting for my vaccine appt date (late '50s) the news re clots and AZ suspension elsewhere made me look up the UKs yellow card reports summary.. I initially thought the suspension was purely political, but having seen the summary i'm wavering and shitting it quite frankly.

What specifically bothered you?

(The report for anyone interested assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/968414/COVID-19_AstraZeneca_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf)

Ummm, the European Medicines and vaccines are APPROVING the AZ vaccine mac you seem to have lost the thread of what is going on. The member states are deciding of their own accord, for no good reason according to their regulators to suspend the vaccine.

Agree. This is not an EU issue. Any decisions to suspend are being made by individual member state governments. If anything, this is a demonstration of the "sovereignty"of national governments.

@DenisetheMenace

PrincessNutNuts

The decision of 17 is wrong because it goes against all data.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Can only repeat, again 🤯, the incidence of blood clotting is lower in the vaccinated (be that AZ or Pfizer) than that in the general population (across UK and Europe). That is undisputed.

Hell, the vaccines are practically therapeutic

Can anyone explain why, if incidence of clotting is higher with Pfizer than it is with AZ (though still lower than expected in the general population), Pfizer has not been pulled in these countries?

Surely that's their decision to make?

The same as it's the American FDA's decision that there's not enough reliable data to even consider AZ for authorisation yet. Four months after we started jabbing it into peoples arms.

People don't see so up in arms about that, weirdly.

@PrincessNutNuts

The same as it's the American FDA's decision that there's not enough reliable data to even consider AZ for authorisation yet. Four months after we started jabbing it into peoples arms

But isn't this true for all the vaccines currently on offer ? Which vaccines have the FDA decided are safe to use ?

[quote oldegg123]@fernom

Actually, it is the EMA who has instigating the pause.

And the WHO.

Both the EMA and WHO have advised AZ vaccination should continue and not be put on hold.[/quote]
Yes you are right - the pause was prompted by the investigations by ema and who, the french health minister said, and that it was expected that vaccinations would resume fairly quickly - sorry.

The ema website updates says vaccinations can continue while investigations are carried out, that "The review is being carried out by EMA's Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee (PRAC), the Committee responsible for the evaluation of safety issues for human medicines. Once the review is completed, PRAC will make any recommendations necessary to minimise risks and protect patients' health"

@MarshaBradyo
Does anyone know why this is?

Yes, it's been posted here by several people. There were few cases of extremely rare and dangerous adverse reactions in young people (related to blood disorder). The fact that it happened shortly after vaccination led to investigation. It's not just a case of blood clots.

@MarshaBradyo

Uk govt started vaccinating people under dubious circumstances. Offering first jab, then moving the second part of the vaccination to a much later date, and going against scientific/vaccine advice.

Didn’t it turn out to be a good decision? Which was led by scientific experts who knew what they were advising

Yes it turned out to be a good decision.

No - the experts who advised did so on the basis of guesswork, not knowledge. Both AZ and Pfizer said DO NOT DO THIS. It COULD have backfired. Thankfully it didn't and personally I think the gamble was worthwhile - I'd have made the same decision - but let's be clear that it WAS a gamble, NOT a scientifically determined choice.

@Itsalonghaul
We all know that the EU is run by Germany and France, those members that believe they are fully independent and free of all control from the EU commission/Germany and France perhaps need to have a closer look at how it works

Are you really implying that Denmark, with a government we have trusted and watched act with swift autonomy earlier than any other EU nation on the original lockdown, does what Germany and France tells us to? That after our purely science led approach to whole pandemic so far, we're just going to meekly bow to our masters and throw that out the window? How dare you? How dare you accuse our country of being that weak?

We stopped days before Germany and France, we were the first, do you think Macron and Merkel had a sneaky zoom meeting with our PM and asked.. sorry, ordered apparently... us to do it first so they didn't look too bad?

Our Health Authorities sang the absolute fucking praises of AZ while the German tabloids and Macron were coming up with their nonsense. Do you think the two big boys forgot to send us a memo telling us to me mean about it?

Give me something... anything, an example from somewhere, to possibly backup your allegation that my country is a pathetic pawn to Germany and France. Something a lot better than, a LOT better than 'we all know'

Well the vaccines are just about to dry up in the EU for months and months with no replacement
No, they're not. J&J aren't able to supply as speedy as hoped, it's true. Our current 'worst case' calendar, assuming only Pfizer and Moderna and a fraction of the promised J&J, is mid August for all 16+ who want it vaccinated (fully, two jabs.) This is updated daily based on the latest information available. If AZ comes back in to play that'll shift to mid-July.
Pfizer are delivery 10m above expected to the EU in the second quarter. That hasn't been applied to our calendar yet because we don't know how much of it is coming our way.

Most of the EU are relying solely on the AZ vaccine. France especially.
The logistics of rolling out Pfizer are complex due to the temperatures that it must be stored at, and it is very very expensive.

The logistic are well within the majority of EU countries' capabilities though.
What's "most of Europe" in this context. Here are Denmark's orders, placed last year before any of the controversy started:

Johnson & Johnson 8,200,000
Pfizer/BioNTech 4,600,000
CureVac 3,400,000
Moderna 3,000,000
Astra Zeneca 1,900,000
Sanofi-GSK 1,900,000
The numbers are 'complete vaccinations' the 3m moderna is 6m doses for the two jabs, for instance.

I don't know what the other countries have ordered, but I assume you've seen this level of detail to be making such a statement?

But sure, if you are so determined to believe that the EU wants to damage a half-EU (Swedish) company so badly, I can't really stop you.

Itsalonghaul One minute you say its a french plot to gain electoral advantage, the next that the French are smart and will see Macrons stupidity.......

Again, ALL of europe wants rid of CV, AZ is 50/50 European/UK, there is no plot, just a difference in regulatory practice.

In 2 weeks confidence will be restored and vaccinations will continue.

The same as it's the American FDA's decision that there's not enough reliable data to even consider AZ for authorisation yet.

Technically correct, but the way it's put is misinformation.

The FDA requires a separate Phase III trial be carried out in the USA. They have no interest in data from elsewhere until that trial is completed. In order to be completed a certain number of participants NEED to have contracted covid - that's ONLY just occurred (last few days). So AZ haven't even applied to the FDA for approval yet, and are unlikely to do so for another week or two.

@MarshaBradyo

Uk govt started vaccinating people under dubious circumstances. Offering first jab, then moving the second part of the vaccination to a much later date, and going against scientific/vaccine advice.

Didn’t it turn out to be a good decision? Which was led by scientific experts who knew what they were advising

Do we know that yet?

What's your definition of "success?"

How many of the 60,000 people who have died in the 14 weeks since we started vaccinating would have had two doses if we'd jabbed on the manufacturers normal schedule, and how many of them would not have died?

How many of the people who die this month and next would have survived if they had had both doses on the manufacturers schedule?

And vice versa.

Is 60,000 dead a better result than we would have had vaccinating on the standard schedule?

I'd be grateful for a link if you have one to a breakdown of those numbers.

@notrub

The same as it's the American FDA's decision that there's not enough reliable data to even consider AZ for authorisation yet.

Technically correct, but the way it's put is misinformation.

The FDA requires a separate Phase III trial be carried out in the USA. They have no interest in data from elsewhere until that trial is completed. In order to be completed a certain number of participants NEED to have contracted covid - that's ONLY just occurred (last few days). So AZ haven't even applied to the FDA for approval yet, and are unlikely to do so for another week or two.

Fair enough.

@jasjas1973

Itsalonghaul One minute you say its a french plot to gain electoral advantage, the next that the French are smart and will see Macrons stupidity.......

Again, ALL of europe wants rid of CV, AZ is 50/50 European/UK, there is no plot, just a difference in regulatory practice.

In 2 weeks confidence will be restored and vaccinations will continue.

Confidence will be restored? Seriously? You don't think that anti-vaxxers will be using this fiasco? You don't think that there will be lasting worries in the populace, because of the political decision to halt AZ vaccinations?