To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

I think people mean the machinery of the EU itself - EU commission etc....no one has any argument with the people in EU countries.....

Is anyone using the term categorically safe on here

yes, a pp said the EMA sais AZ was categorically safe. Hence my rebuttal of same.

I still don't see how it's an EU thing when so many of the countries aren't in the EU and the EU European Medicines Agency is not pushing this. Quite the reverse

It's not an EU thing. But since when did reality stop the frothing?

@PrincessNutNuts

Isn't it all just the precautionary principle in action *@notrub*?

The USA is a sovereign country with its own regulator.

And so are all the countries pausing AZ while they look into it.

Even though some of them may be members of the EU.

How can it be the precautionary principle for the US when they haven't even considered it yet??

NB the US may reject the initial AZ vaccine because of the low effectiveness against the SA strain which will almost certainly spread across the US at some point, or it may be approved, but then not actually used......

@Londonmummy66

I'm a bit baffled by quite a lot of this thread. I'm not a europhile and I have had my AZ jab. However, I do think that there were enough warning flags in Europe that there was something odd - two nurses in Austria having problems after having the jab at the same time and place, a nurse in Belgium and the Danish and Swedish cases all coming back with very unusual clotting related issues. Given that these issues weren't coming up elsewhere (eg in the UK) it would make sense to stop and look to see if there was a reason why the European doses of AZ were having a problem - the chances are that there might be an issue with a particular batch or with a particular factory. Given that the AZ vaccine in Europe is made separately to the AZ vaccine in the UK it is logical that the problem is more likely to be in Europe than with the AZ formula as a whole. The problem is that many EU nations are quite anti-vax so as soon as a couple of the more sensible nations like Denmark take a step back to look at what is going on, all the anti-vax nations do rather feel the need to do the same - hence the domino effect. Hopefully they are able to get on doing extra jabs with the Pfizer and Moderna in the meantime to use up any slack time in the vaccine process.

Also the complaints about the Kent variant being referred to as the English variant on the continent - there was a great thread around Christmas when a microbiologist posted loads about the vaccines. She also explained that the Kent variant had been traced to a mutation that took place in a person who had been hospitalised for a long time with COVID which gave the virus enough time to mutate many times coming up with the troublesome new version. SO it is an English variant.

Absolutely agree with this. And yes the variant is known as the UK variant throughout the world. It is much more contagious than previous and is responsible for the surge in cases throughout Europe.

@Londonmummy66

I'm a bit baffled by quite a lot of this thread. I'm not a europhile and I have had my AZ jab. However, I do think that there were enough warning flags in Europe that there was something odd - two nurses in Austria having problems after having the jab at the same time and place, a nurse in Belgium and the Danish and Swedish cases all coming back with very unusual clotting related issues. Given that these issues weren't coming up elsewhere (eg in the UK) it would make sense to stop and look to see if there was a reason why the European doses of AZ were having a problem - the chances are that there might be an issue with a particular batch or with a particular factory. Given that the AZ vaccine in Europe is made separately to the AZ vaccine in the UK it is logical that the problem is more likely to be in Europe than with the AZ formula as a whole. The problem is that many EU nations are quite anti-vax so as soon as a couple of the more sensible nations like Denmark take a step back to look at what is going on, all the anti-vax nations do rather feel the need to do the same - hence the domino effect. Hopefully they are able to get on doing extra jabs with the Pfizer and Moderna in the meantime to use up any slack time in the vaccine process.

Also the complaints about the Kent variant being referred to as the English variant on the continent - there was a great thread around Christmas when a microbiologist posted loads about the vaccines. She also explained that the Kent variant had been traced to a mutation that took place in a person who had been hospitalised for a long time with COVID which gave the virus enough time to mutate many times coming up with the troublesome new version. SO it is an English variant.

I thought it a working theory or did they actually identify the patient?

Is anyone using the term categorically safe on here

What do you define as categorically safe?

Is leaving your house categorically safe? Sarah Everard would disagree - and that's before you start worrying about lightning, or things falling off planes
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56141673

or giant hailstones
www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/what-are-your-chances-of-being-killed-by-hail-in-the-us/333722

or perhaps smited by meteorites
astronomy.com/news/2020/05/death-from-above-7-unlucky-tales-of-people-killed-by-meteorites

It's not about safe/unsafe, it's about weighted risks.... even IF the vaccine was responsible for ALL the observed clots (highly unlikely) it would STILL be a lower risk than covid, particularly for the age groups being currently vaccinated.

Perhaps by the time we get to the youngest groups, the risks are more evenly balanced - but by then we'll have a LOT more data to know exactly what the relative risks are anyway.

Don’t doubt there is an element of geopolitical sulk on this, but fairly, it doesn’t seem that scientists within those countries are that supportive of their politicians decisions. So politics it is.

@1234abzee

I think people mean the machinery of the EU itself - EU commission etc....no one has any argument with the people in EU countries.....

And yet the EMA has said that it's safe to use, so it's individual countries who are making the decision to pause use (joined by Iceland, Norway and until recently, Thailand), and still posters on here are blaming the EU and accusing them of bullying us.

Yes I was a remainder but I have to say that their handling and response to vaccinations has changed my views somewhat. They seem to blindly obey process without consideration of the bigger picture. They are going to be going into their third wave of Covid. Blood clots are the least of their worries!

@1234abzee

I think people mean the machinery of the EU itself - EU commission etc....no one has any argument with the people in EU countries.....

The decision on AZ is being taken by member states though. Health policy is national or even sub-national/regional.

@FourTeaFallOut

Do most of the commenters here realise that the AZ vaccine is PAUSED FOR A FEW DAYS.

Yes, but this suspension, for a mere handful of days, will have a negative impact on the confidence of this vaccine for weeks and months to come. Good job there isn't a more contagious strain on the march with a largely unvaccinated population to infect.

I think the opposite is true. It gives me greater confidence in the vaccine when I see that our health authority are talking any unusual side effects very seriously.

Well, we're about to find out.

It’s becoming a complete shambles, it’s going to cause chaos, what about all those poor people who have had the 1st jab of AZ, they are not going to trust having there 2nd jab, the EMA are saying AZ is safe, all this is doing is causing doubt and confusion

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/16/chaos-in-germany-and-italy-after-suspension-of-oxford-vaccine

Oliver Moody who works for the Times in Berlin has just tweeted this, which may reassure some of you who are worried about the AZ vaccine: If there is no link between the AZ vaccine and CVST, your risk of getting CVST in the fortnight after vaccination is (I think) ~0.00007%.
If the German govt's fears are confirmed, it's ~0.00035%.

Do most of the commenters here realise that the AZ vaccine is PAUSED FOR A FEW DAYS

it is paused while investigations are carried out - that could take longer

Same @Evanna13.

@picknmix1984

Yes I was a remainder but I have to say that their handling and response to vaccinations has changed my views somewhat. They seem to blindly obey process without consideration of the bigger picture. They are going to be going into their third wave of Covid. Blood clots are the least of their worries!

Who's "they"?

@poppycat10

Do most of the commenters here realise that the AZ vaccine is PAUSED FOR A FEW DAYS

it is paused while investigations are carried out - that could take longer

It is not expected to take longer

Why would the Spanish govt piss their voters off to the point of losing power just to take a shot at Britain

Totally agree.

While I think other countries would have preferred us to stay in the union (as would I), we honestly aren't that important in the grand scheme of things.

People who say "They're jealous of Britain's vaccine success" are like an over-controlling ex who can't accept that the woman he tried to keep under his thumb really has dumped him and moved on with her life. She hasn't married that other bloke just to make him jealous, and their baby isn't just a way to try to get his attention.

Other european countries are (IMO) being over-cautious, but I greatly doubt it's because it's a British vaccine ffs!

And look at all the people who said they would refuse the Pfizer one because they only wanted British serum coursing through their veins. Aren't they *rseholes, too? (Spolier alert -yes they are)

@1234abzee

I think people mean the machinery of the EU itself - EU commission etc....no one has any argument with the people in EU countries.....

But the machinery of the EU says "AZ is fine. Fill your boots. "

It's the regulators in the individual sovereign countries - only some of which are EU members - that are pulling AZ.

Problem is that it is the EU big hitters that are leading the way - Germany, France, Spain and Italy

Those countries and their leaders have huge influence and it’s creating a domino effect

Macron is today talking about suing AZ because they aren't delivering enough vaccines.

I suspect this is all just cover for the fact they don't have enough vaccines. The Italian regulators have come out and said this was a political decision, not medical.

@starfro

he Italian regulators have come out and said this was a political decision, not medical.

A link to these claims? ( Daily Mail or The Sun doesn't count)

Yep the EU have a cob on with the UK and any opportunity to smear has been taken.

Facts show that 3000 people a month have blood clots in the UK.... the ones having the vaccine at no higher rate than normal and Pfizer also has clotting in the usual amount of people (but no mention of stopping that one).

Stupid since the vaccine anxious and the anti vax will jump on this and without actually realising that the clot rate is no higher will use as a smear campaign to state vaccine are dangerous/kill people/harm people etc and dopey people will spread so ultimately it could cost people their lives! Crazy