To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

@FullofCurryandparatha

No, I'm saying you should understand the difference between "this is categorically safe" and " we have no reason to think it is unsafe at this present time".

I doubt any regulator on the planet would ever describe any medicine as 'categorically' safe.

Well , people have their own opinions , but , in the instance anyone is worried about AZ side effect s ( & I haven't done a massive survey of millions of people) some people I know - including me - who have had it have had cold flu -ey type symptoms for a day. But day after that felt fine . One chap I am aware of took a day off work because felt a bit rubbish but honestly honestly have not heard anything worse than that.

Has the Pfizer had higher incidence or not?

I keep catching a bit of news on this and missing reports but I keep hearing spokespeople say this

@FullofCurryandparatha

No, I'm saying you should understand the difference between "this is categorically safe" and " we have no reason to think it is unsafe at this present time".

Is anyone using the term categorically safe on here

@PrincessNutNuts

The FDA have yet to authorise Astra Zeneca for use in the US.

The EU's European Medicines Agency has authorised it and spoken in support of it.

Loads of non-EU countries have either not authorised it. Or have paused it's rollout.

It's a stretch to make this an "EU" issue, surely?

(HRTWT)

Those non-eu countries that have stopped it (Iceland and Norway) are buying through the EU scheme and are doing what EMA says (so if the vaccine is good)

There are many other big countries (Canada/Australia) who have approved it and are using it, Last week Italy blocked 250k vaccines that were meant to be for Australia, Thailands PM has been vaccinated with it today (the 1st person) as they're rolling it out.

if my neighbour had been vaccinated just in December she wouldn't have died at the beginning of February, due to her husband being older - he'd been vaccinated but at 62 they hadn't got to her cohort and she became seriously ill within a week of them both contracting covid19 and had 3 weeks in hospital

delaying vaccinations in this manner will cost lives by just a few weeks

its all a red herring

I'm a bit baffled by quite a lot of this thread. I'm not a europhile and I have had my AZ jab. However, I do think that there were enough warning flags in Europe that there was something odd - two nurses in Austria having problems after having the jab at the same time and place, a nurse in Belgium and the Danish and Swedish cases all coming back with very unusual clotting related issues. Given that these issues weren't coming up elsewhere (eg in the UK) it would make sense to stop and look to see if there was a reason why the European doses of AZ were having a problem - the chances are that there might be an issue with a particular batch or with a particular factory. Given that the AZ vaccine in Europe is made separately to the AZ vaccine in the UK it is logical that the problem is more likely to be in Europe than with the AZ formula as a whole. The problem is that many EU nations are quite anti-vax so as soon as a couple of the more sensible nations like Denmark take a step back to look at what is going on, all the anti-vax nations do rather feel the need to do the same - hence the domino effect. Hopefully they are able to get on doing extra jabs with the Pfizer and Moderna in the meantime to use up any slack time in the vaccine process.

Also the complaints about the Kent variant being referred to as the English variant on the continent - there was a great thread around Christmas when a microbiologist posted loads about the vaccines. She also explained that the Kent variant had been traced to a mutation that took place in a person who had been hospitalised for a long time with COVID which gave the virus enough time to mutate many times coming up with the troublesome new version. SO it is an English variant.

I thought Thailand had suspended use of Astra Zeneca @EasterIssland? And South Africa?

And the EMA has explicitly come out in support of the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

And still the FDA hasn't approved its use.

I just don't see it as an "EU" issue.

Many of us have relatives in other countries, including the EU, and would like them to be as protected as we are. I understood that Sweden had some input into the vaccine, so I would be interested to hear their take on the situation.

Sweden have suspended using it pending an investigation.

I actually think our media have played a blinder in whipping everyone up into a nationalist frenzy. The medical authorities of various countries are investigating some rare and very serious side effects (not just bog-standard blood clots but quite unusual ones in young people); this is how medicine works, clinical trials are always paused if serious side effects show up and need investigating. Our media is basically saying "They're only doing it because they hate us cos of Brexit and they're jealous of us, everything's fine, nothing to see here!". This isn't Eurovision!

strudsespark

I think people in the UK are staring at the EU in disbelief at their politicians and how this is being reported not at members of the public.

Whilst there might or might not be some side effects that cause blood clots it is akin to stopping everyone’s chemotherapy because a few people died after having it. Stopping the AZ vaccine but not stopping Pfizer which has similar or worse results looks more like a political move than a government who want the best for its people.
Even if it was proved that 30 people had died purely from the vaccine, 30 people compared to the many thousands who will die through the coming third wave that a lot of countries are facing because they have paused their vaccine programme looks horrific from this side of the Channel

Do most of the commenters here realise that the AZ vaccine is PAUSED FOR A FEW DAYS. Countries are still vaccinating with the other vaccines they have available and will use the AZ supply they have in a FEW DAYS when it has been fully investigated. There will not be millions of AZ vaccines going to waste. Countries do not have a huge supply of AZ vaccine anyway.

AZ have been very poor in their supply to the EU. They have promised delivery on numerous occasions which they have cancelled or reduced quantities at the last minute. This has WAY MORE IMPACT ON VACCINE ROLLOUT than this pause for a couple of days.

@FullofCurryandparatha

I mean, if you're thick enough that you don't realise that the individual countries made the decisions individually, instead blaming the imaginary monolithic EU, should you even be giving your opinion?

Well I think it has now been confirmed that 4 of them did talk together before making the announcement so are you really that naive to believe these are not political decisions?

Not political decisions because of Brexit but political decisions just the same.

South Africa stopped using AZ a couple of weeks ago already, they sent their batch away. But that was nothing to do with clotting, it was about concerns about efficacy in SA strain.

@PrincessNutNuts

I thought Thailand had suspended use of Astra Zeneca *@EasterIssland*? And South Africa?

And the EMA has explicitly come out in support of the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

And still the FDA hasn't approved its use.

I just don't see it as an "EU" issue.

But that's not the headlines so it doesn't count.

@PrincessNutNuts

I thought Thailand had suspended use of Astra Zeneca *@EasterIssland*? And South Africa?

And the EMA has explicitly come out in support of the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

And still the FDA hasn't approved its use.

I just don't see it as an "EU" issue.

The FDA hasn't NOT approved it either.

The US requires its own Phase III trials for approval and they have only just reached a point where there is sufficient data (not yet published), so I don't believe they've actually applied for approval yet!

I see Thailand are restarting using AZ. (I checked.)

I still don't see how it's an EU thing when so many of the countries aren't in the EU and the EU European Medicines Agency is not pushing this. Quite the reverse.

Lots of countries are doing the same thing, some of them are in the EU, is how I see it.

" I wasn’t allowed the AZ one due to the clotting issue and seeing as I haven’t just had 1 or 2 clots. More like 10 lots."

That's interesting for all those saying that Pfizer has all the same issues, isn't it?

@Londonmummy66

I'm a bit baffled by quite a lot of this thread. I'm not a europhile and I have had my AZ jab. However, I do think that there were enough warning flags in Europe that there was something odd - two nurses in Austria having problems after having the jab at the same time and place, a nurse in Belgium and the Danish and Swedish cases all coming back with very unusual clotting related issues. Given that these issues weren't coming up elsewhere (eg in the UK) it would make sense to stop and look to see if there was a reason why the European doses of AZ were having a problem - the chances are that there might be an issue with a particular batch or with a particular factory. Given that the AZ vaccine in Europe is made separately to the AZ vaccine in the UK it is logical that the problem is more likely to be in Europe than with the AZ formula as a whole. The problem is that many EU nations are quite anti-vax so as soon as a couple of the more sensible nations like Denmark take a step back to look at what is going on, all the anti-vax nations do rather feel the need to do the same - hence the domino effect. Hopefully they are able to get on doing extra jabs with the Pfizer and Moderna in the meantime to use up any slack time in the vaccine process.

Also the complaints about the Kent variant being referred to as the English variant on the continent - there was a great thread around Christmas when a microbiologist posted loads about the vaccines. She also explained that the Kent variant had been traced to a mutation that took place in a person who had been hospitalised for a long time with COVID which gave the virus enough time to mutate many times coming up with the troublesome new version. SO it is an English variant.

Not quite true, virtually impossible to trace back. It was postulated that it may be likely that it developed in somebody with immunodeficiency who thus took an awful long time to clear the virus. This may not have been the case, it may not have been in Kent or even in England, nobody is certain...

Isn't it all just the precautionary principle in action @notrub?

The USA is a sovereign country with its own regulator.

And so are all the countries pausing AZ while they look into it.

Even though some of them may be members of the EU.

@Bythemillpond

strudsespark

I think people in the UK are staring at the EU in disbelief at their politicians and how this is being reported not at members of the public.

Whilst there might or might not be some side effects that cause blood clots it is akin to stopping everyone’s chemotherapy because a few people died after having it. Stopping the AZ vaccine but not stopping Pfizer which has similar or worse results looks more like a political move than a government who want the best for its people.
Even if it was proved that 30 people had died purely from the vaccine, 30 people compared to the many thousands who will die through the coming third wave that a lot of countries are facing because they have paused their vaccine programme looks horrific from this side of the Channel

They have paused the AZ vaccine because of a range of very unusual symptoms in young people who received a particular batch of this vaccine. Any side effects seen from Pfizer have been typical. If there was a cluster of very unusual and dangerous symptoms in people after taking the Pfizer or any other vaccine I am sure they would pause it too until they have all the information. This is sensible.

AZ vaccine is being paused for a FEW DAYS. All other vaccines are going ahead. Thousands of people will not die because the AZ vaccine has been paused for a few days.

Do most of the commenters here realise that the AZ vaccine is PAUSED FOR A FEW DAYS.

Yes, but this suspension, for a mere handful of days, will have a negative impact on the confidence of this vaccine for weeks and months to come. Good job there isn't a more contagious strain on the march with a largely unvaccinated population to infect.

I know, but it drives me crackers @ancientgran.

I just want facts.

Not for people to politicise public health because they want to have a go at the EU.

"I had my first vaccine ( Oxford / AZ) Anecdata says the Pfizer one has fewer side effects. My side effects & DH were mildly feeling like you are going to get a cold type symptoms. Lasts one day I shall certainly be going for my second."

How old are you? Apparently, old people don't get the side effects.
Also, some people are saying Pfizer has more side effects on the second dose.

"99% of Brits have no problem with the people of the EU (or wider Europe) they have a problem with the politicians"

Eh? Politicians in different countries, with different political systems and different parties, changing every few years. Makes no sense.