To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

@strudsespark

With the level of nationalism, vitriol and superiority sprouted on these and brexit threads, I'm never going to meet a brit in an open minded relaxed way anymore 🥲.

99% of Brits have no problem with the people of the EU (or wider Europe) they have a problem with the politicians

[quote ExhaustedFlamingo]@NewLevelsOfTiredness

Aaaah thank you. That makes sense. I read a few articles that just repeated the same basic info and then I gave up. Those details weren't included and they do fill in the missing gaps.

I'm not really one for conspiracy theories. While I'm certain there is some anti-UK feeling in some European countries, I don't think they'd prioritise that over reducing the number of COVID cases in their own nation. That whole suggestion seemed a bit bonkers.

I doubt the AZ vaccine poses any significant threat and I do worry what damage this will do to take-up rates. Lots of people will read the headlines but won't believe any subsequent reassurances that it's safe. I've seen quite a few people on my Facebook timeline saying they won't have the AZ jab now. Hilarious really because originally everyone wanted the "British" vaccine and not Pfizer!

But still, investigating is absolutely the right thing to do. Hopefully the AZ vaccine will get the green light to restart in all countries very soon.

I had my AZ vaccine back at the start of Feb. I'm happy to have my second vaccine as soon as it becomes available.[/quote]
I would also be happy with AZ :)

I've said elsewhere in the thread that anti-UK sentiment shouldn't be judged from the loudest shouters. I know that here in Denmark there's not much. There's a bit of "When did our lovely cousin start doing drugs and go crazy?" sentiment, but it's not the same as 'dislike.' :)

There's also plenty of Europeans who are able to separate the British population from your current government, just as I'm sure there's plenty of French people who wish Macron would stop talking right now.

The vaccine doubt is so individual per country. I know Germany and France tend to shout the loudest but it really differs. It's not an issue here, and I severely doubt we'll have any problem shifting the AZ when they resume using it (especially since it's a smaller portion of our vaccination program anyway - so it's not like they need everyone to be ok with it.)

@TheKeatingFive

Random people on MN know better than scientists in regulatory bodies from many countries

The WHO and the EMA don't agree with these scientists btw.

The bbc has a link to an Interview to the Italian agency that checks medicines. He’s said he’s against the halt and it’s more a political reason to be cautious ...

The saddest part about it is that there have been about the same number of blood clots after the Pfizer jab too, but no-one mentions that

It's been mentioned 20 times on this thread alone, and if you had read any of the responses you might realise that the AZ issues are not just regular blood clots.

@FullofCurryandparatha

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine

And what the fuck do you know about it? The experts in these matters all over Europe agree that its the right thing to do. Why would anyone listen to some mad angry woman on MN rather than them?

Actually the medical experts in this country disagree. Just to remind you that France had to abandon it's own vaccine as it was hopeless. No doubt overseen by the same experts you are haliing

@ExhaustedFlamingo

I agree that it makes sense to check for any possible link. Whether the vaccine rollout needed to be paused while they did that, I'm not sure based on the very small numbers. But I don't profess to be an expert in these things - I don't know the protocols.

I've skimmed this thread and amidst the raging about the EU vs the UK - has anyone actually answered the question about why only AZ is being halted for investigation? If Pfizer have similar number of incidences - which they apparently do - how can those countries possibly justify allowing that to continue but AZ to stop?

Genuinely interested in an answer if anyone has one?

Politics. AZ probably can't deliver and the EU would rather have that as an issue then the more relevant issue re procurement. They have made a mess.

@SchadenfreudePersonified & others

I had my first vaccine ( Oxford / AZ) Anecdata says the Pfizer one has fewer side effects. My side effects & DH were mildly feeling like you are going to get a cold type symptoms. Lasts one day I shall certainly be going for my second.

I think my son said that the number of blood clots found with those who had it was fewer than e.g. the population of Belgium would have got anyway. It is as a previous poster said smaller chance than winning the lottery.

Each to their own but I would have the AZ vaccine again in a heartbeat. ( well I have to because of booster thing. ) Also where I live you just get told which one and where - I am sure if someone made a complete fuss then you can get the other one. But if I am right( and someone tell me ) the Pfizer one needs more specialist refridgeration - where as I could get mine at local GP.

I love my son to the moon and back & given his father and I have had the AZ one - I would advise him to take it.

to posters who have reminded about the difference between correlation and causation.

I mentioned it being a brevity thing yesterday and was told I was pathetic thinking the eu would risk lives to save face over brexit.... as much as our government are also corrupt, I wouldn't put anything past the EU, they will be doing everything they can to dissuade others from leaving the block! They will not allow it to look like Britain is successful in anything!

@strudsespark

With the level of nationalism, vitriol and superiority sprouted on these and brexit threads, I'm never going to meet a brit in an open minded relaxed way anymore 🥲.

I'm a Brit and I've felt that way since Brexit, closely followed by Corbyn proved that we're a nation full of gullible morons.

Ten European countries have stopped the vaccine. Causing unnecessary panic. 3 have ceased to use it. This is all based on no evidence that the vaccine is not safe!

I think if EU members also suspended the Pjizer vaccine given it produces MORE blood clots than AZ according to published updates, then it would not look politically motivated, and it could be an abundance of over caution and fear, but given they have not so far even considered the prospect of suspending Pfizer I think it is safe to say the blood clots are not the issue here!!!

Brexit*

@Cailleach1

It is just awful isn't it? The EMA, the pharmacovigilance Committee of a regulatory agency investigating data on adverse effects. They might even change their opinion if the facts change. What a liberty? Or make a decision that the benefits outweigh the risks. Bast*rds.

And some EU countries having the autonomy to pause vaccine programmes in their own country. Who do they think they are, sovereign states? Again, shouldn't be allowed.

All of this.

It's some amount of hubris on the part of British MNers to think that anti-UK sentiment has anything to do with this. Other countries in the EU just don't really care very much about the UK. That shouldn't come as news. They don't even refer to the AZ vaccine as the "British vaccine" (why would they? They don't refer to the Pfizer/BionTech one as the "German vaccine" either).

Various EU countries that received a particular batch of the AZ vaccine (that has been linked to unusually severe side effects) have paused its use, temporarily, to look at the case data more closely. No big deal. There have been clear announcements from several of these countries that they don't believe there is a causal link but they are being more cautious than necessary to make sure, as often happens in public health decision making.

These countries all have multiple vaccines on the go, of which the AZ vaccine represents a minority, so the impact of a temporary pause isn't enormous. It certainly hasn't halted their vaccine programme entirely. Again, it's no big deal.

Viewing it as some sort of national-level insult to the UK is just bizarre

@strudsespark

With the level of nationalism, vitriol and superiority sprouted on these and brexit threads, I'm never going to meet a brit in an open minded relaxed way anymore 🥲.

It is all so absolutely frightening .

I read Le Monde French paper for a bit of balance. It translates to English on my phone. This article about the AZ suspension is pretty fair and balanced I think. Having read it I'm still happy to have my vax on Thursday www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2021/03/15/astrazeneca-six-questions-sur-la-suspension-du-vaccin-en-france_6073220_4355770.html

I mentioned it being a brevity thing yesterday and was told I was pathetic thinking the eu would risk lives to save face over brexit.... as much as our government are also corrupt, I wouldn't put anything past the EU, they will be doing everything they can to dissuade others from leaving the block! They will not allow it to look like Britain is successful in anything!

This is a bit silly. It’s nothing to do with brexit.

It’s about trying to save face/distract from their issues with AZ supplies and handing of the pandemic generally.

@Chatterbox1987

I mentioned it being a brevity thing yesterday and was told I was pathetic thinking the eu would risk lives to save face over brexit.... as much as our government are also corrupt, I wouldn't put anything past the EU, they will be doing everything they can to dissuade others from leaving the block! They will not allow it to look like Britain is successful in anything!

Oh. Will the pharmacovigilance committee be instructed what to find in their investigation then? Who will instruct them? Or maybe it is a cartel of all the shifty EU politicians. So different from the British ones.

Are there any EU politicians at all who won't let swathes succumb to the virus? To make a political point. The devils!

Politics. AZ probably can't deliver and the EU would rather have that as an issue then the more relevant issue re procurement. They have made a mess

This ^

If they can't have it, then no one is going to, even if they have to make things up to achieve it! Why are the EU asking the US for extra AZ supplies if it has such a problem with them? US said no, and then suddenly this happens.

I just don't trust anything they say anymore after the terrible manipulation and outright lies told about the AZ vaccine in the last few months.

It has really made me worry for the future of the EU. The are being exposed as corrupt liars prepared to go to any length to preserve themselves.

Frustrating for me as if I was in the uk I would have had my first vaccine by now.
No idea when I'll get it in France.
I hope i can visit the uk soon without the vaccine being a prerequisite.

It's best to meet any nationality with an open mind strudsespark. Never good to be closed minded about an entire nation of people

[quote Cailleach1]@oldegg123 , No, the EMA doesn't have the authority to tell individual member states to continue with a vaccine programme they are perfectly entitled to pause. They just stated they were of the view that it was safe. However, their investigation into this issue is not concluded. And I am sure those countries that paused their vaccination programme did not do so lightly.

There will be an extraordinary meeting of the PRAC on the 18th. We may have a statement after that.[/quote]
No - and again I didn't state anything like in that in my post. The EMA doesn't have authority to tell member states what to do.

However, the point still stands that the EMA have advised member states to continue with vaccination during the investigation, and individual countries have elected to go against this guidance.

@ExhaustedFlamingo

I agree that it makes sense to check for any possible link. Whether the vaccine rollout needed to be paused while they did that, I'm not sure based on the very small numbers. But I don't profess to be an expert in these things - I don't know the protocols.

I've skimmed this thread and amidst the raging about the EU vs the UK - has anyone actually answered the question about why only AZ is being halted for investigation? If Pfizer have similar number of incidences - which they apparently do - how can those countries possibly justify allowing that to continue but AZ to stop?

Genuinely interested in an answer if anyone has one?

Well it has absolutely nothing to do with the UK or Brexit.

It's because of a couple of potentially unlikely events that occurred where the local regulators felt further investigation was required. Probably wrong to do so, but they're human and they decided it was better to STOP an action that may carry a small risk than to continue with an action that reduced a larger risk.

Other regulators are then under some pressure to follow suit - particularly where they have alternate vaccines to use instead.

Finally enough regulators have called a pause that politicians decided to step in elsewhere to do the same, lest they be accused of ignoring a risk.

@Itsalonghaul

I think if EU members also suspended the Pjizer vaccine given it produces MORE blood clots than AZ according to published updates, then it would not look politically motivated, and it could be an abundance of over caution and fear, but given they have not so far even considered the prospect of suspending Pfizer I think it is safe to say the blood clots are not the issue here!!!

But there haven't been incidents of clotting and hemorraghing of such unusual severity, reported so close together, after taking the Pfizer vaccine.

It's the clustering of unusually severe illness, in such a compact timeframe that has led to caution.

Pfizer has indeed had more reported blood clots afterwards, but with a more natural seeming random spread. That doesn't raise the same flags.

This still doesn't mean anyone thinks there's a link to the vaccine, just a sad coincidence that cannot, unfortunately, simply be dismissed as coincidence by people responsible for the medical safety of their people.

@Itsalonghaul

I think if EU members also suspended the Pjizer vaccine given it produces MORE blood clots than AZ according to published updates, then it would not look politically motivated, and it could be an abundance of over caution and fear, but given they have not so far even considered the prospect of suspending Pfizer I think it is safe to say the blood clots are not the issue here!!!

You’re right, blood clots aren’t the issue. A specific type of clot and presentation are the issue.

As for posters saying they’ve been told to have the Pfizer over Astra Zeneca, this makes no sense given the rate of DVT and PE is practically the same for both vaccines.

Le Monde has several pieces on the AZ suspension today. Some are only available to subscribers, others are accessible to all, like this one:

www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2021/03/15/astrazeneca-six-questions-sur-la-suspension-du-vaccin-en-france_6073220_4355770.html

All the gvmt spokespersons are saying they hope the suspension is temporary and several have indicated that they were not keen to suspend, but are following other countries' lead because not doing so would be seen as reckless by French citizens.

Vaccination has not been slowed down because there are other vaccines available and AZ stocks were delayed anyway.

The French health minister received the AZ vaccine himself and has said he hopes the EMA will report asap and reassure everyone about safety.

That's a devilishly tortuous way to sulk over a vaccine that no one other than UK citizens ever describes as "British" or "the Oxford vaccine" and whose trial procedure was a little creative in places.