To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

Macron and Germany supported the vaccine until the last couple of days and are only now suspending, awaiting EMA approval to go ahead

Macron and Germany?

France and Germany don't need to wait for the EMA, the EMA have advised them to get on with it.

Delays from AZ have actually caused a much greater impact on the vaccine rollout in many of these countries than this pause will.

Good point.

If it is political, many people are not going to forget. And some wont forgive.

Like, we won't forget that we've had 126,000 deaths? Do you really think that the decision to go into lock down well after all other major European countries had closed down was completely not political? Scientists were pushing the UK Gov to go into lockdown but oh no, Boris and his crew decided that we are so exceptional that we will not follow the example of our European friends and we will stay open. And voila, here we are, 126,000 deaths later. You think that was not political? Or maybe you will quickly forget that?

The way they are behaving is really odd; the idea that you apply this extreme version of the 'precautionary principle' during a pandemic is just bizarre and unhelpful for everyone. Its very clear - the blood clotting rates are normal - i.e. nothing to do with the vaccine. I have always been very 'Pro-European' with lots of respect for our neighbors, but this is undermining that respect for sure.

@Worknoplay

Has it occurred to anyone that the UK has the worst death toll in Europe, that the pandemic has been managed so badly here (eat out to help out, anyone?), that our leadership has completely discredited itself, that our politicians are seen as complete idiots in Europe, and maybe that's why the people and politicians don't trust a vaccine developed here?

That doesn't make too much sense. It's not Boris himself developing the vaccine is it?

Holding. back for a few days to be sure there isn't any causation is sensible. It won't cause any overall delay because within the same 30 day period, for example, the same amount of vaccinations will be carried out because next week, when it's most probably restarted, vaccines will be given at twice the speed until it's caught up on. And confidence will be higher in the vaccine because our governments actually ensured the safety rather than ploughed ahead. The only fuckwittery is from posts like this, trying to politically pointscore without actually having the capacity to do primary school level maths.

@emmylousings

The way they are behaving is really odd; the idea that you apply this extreme version of the 'precautionary principle' during a pandemic is just bizarre and unhelpful for everyone. Its very clear - the blood clotting rates are normal - i.e. nothing to do with the vaccine. I have always been very 'Pro-European' with lots of respect for our neighbors, but this is undermining that respect for sure.

It's not the levels of blood clotting in the whole population. Its these highly unusual reactions of young people in this batch of AZ vaccine that is being reviewed.

@FatCatThinCat

Who has died as a direct result from the vaccine?

There have now been several deaths due to blood clots shortly after vaccination. Italy has launched a manslaughter investigation following the death of a teacher after vaccination.

After "X" is not necessarily because of "X"

Coincidence is NOT casuality.

This is a HUGE vaccination programme. The first people to be targeted are in age groups where they are likely to be developing other age-related conditions anyway - and this includes blood clots.

By sheer chance, some people who would have developed a blood clot anyway will develop if following the vaccine.

In a vanishing small number of cases, they will develop them almost immediately after the vaccine. This is what has happened here. advanced age, people of any age can have them - they are just less common. One of my patients was 15.

Some of these people will be younger than average - but that's what "average" takes into account. Although strokes etc are associated with

We all knew that this vaccine had been developed and rolled out in an incredibly short time. This means that they haven't had the luxury of completing the many trials which are required to legally safeguard them against spurious lawsuits (which is what the far end of many trials are).

You know those "known side effects" you see on the information leaflets about your medicines? The ones that say "Rare Side Effects" and include things like "in 0.00003% of patients, their ears were pulled off in a rugby match"? That's what they are, It's effectively saying "This may happen to some people. It's probably not due to the medicine, but we mention it anyway so you can give informed consent, and if your ears get pulled off in a rugby match, you can't say we didn't warn you."

I've had my first AZ jab, and I will be having my second. I'm not lying awake worrying about developing blood clots because the likelihood of that is much less than the likelihood of contracting COVID.

As others have said, this is very sad because it will affect take-up of the vaccine.

I think the countries which have refused to administer it are being very short-sighted.

It's a fucking travesty that we have had so many deaths. A mixture of cowardice, incompetence and reluctance to deal with the situation at hand meant our mortality stats are far higher than they ever should have been.

And that won't be forgotten. "Political incompetence" should be on the death certificate for a good number of our dead, and it doesn't sound any better or worse than the cause of death known as "precautionary principle". Those who are lost unnecessarily will be mourned as hard regardless.

@Worknoplay

If it is political, many people are not going to forget. And some wont forgive.

Like, we won't forget that we've had 126,000 deaths? Do you really think that the decision to go into lock down well after all other major European countries had closed down was completely not political? Scientists were pushing the UK Gov to go into lockdown but oh no, Boris and his crew decided that we are so exceptional that we will not follow the example of our European friends and we will stay open. And voila, here we are, 126,000 deaths later. You think that was not political? Or maybe you will quickly forget that?

I actually think perversely as result of this decision to pause az and discredit it that Italy and France will have the same amount of deaths as the UK. Yes we did so many shit things But right now we doing better and I just want a more normal life in the UK. I would be weary of travelling in Europe or allowing holidays to Europe until eu caught up.

I am hopeful it won't impact our vaccination programme here too much - I think in general people in the UK are eager to get it (hence the "vaccine envy" etc) and posting on social when they get "called" which is a bit cringe but whatever In the continent there doesn't seem to be the same appetite for it - take up lower even when they have the supplies or being picky about which jab they get - christ I'd take ANY of them and be grateful.

Must be frustrating for Europeans who are keen to get vaccinated - no one can deny the positive effect it's had on our numbers, surely that's the aim for all.

Yup, it's a bit funny people from a country where deaths are proportionally over twice as high as the countries applying caution being critical about the countries with such significantly better records for protecting it's people. Ireland has done a seriously shitty job on Covid in so, so, so many ways. It's still been over twice as good as the UK. Maybe leave the glass house before starting to fling stones.

Has it occurred to anyone that the UK has the worst death toll in Europe

So far! I think other countries might be overtaking us at this rate.

They estimate that every day's delay in the vaccination programme could mean 1700 lives lost, and that's just in Germany.

Plus there is the risk of more variants developing the more the virus is allowed to spread, some of which may be vaccine resistant. The delay and panic is inexcusable.

We have lived in three EU countries, DS 1 is at uni in an EU country, DH is EU citizen, but we are settled in UK and Brexit supporters. EU politicians were always worse than UK ones in general, although any strongly left leaning voters will not agree. Exceptions on both sides obviously. We watch German news every night and current affairs programmes and it's just toe curling. Trouble is they can't get rid of UvdL, and their game now is defending the EU at all costs, even the cost of lives. It's a disgrace. I'm only glad that my 87 MIL has now had her (Moderna) vaccine.

The Italian death "the day after vaccine" in the case referred to upthread was entirely unrelated to the vaccine, in the article it said as much. The clue's in the term "manslaughter" not "AZ Slaughter". They were looking for a perpetrator as I understand it.

It's not funny at all. Is it funny to you that a country which has seen some much death from one illness might be more bewildered that you would jeopardise the trust capital in a life saving vaccine on such spurious grounds?

@dementedma

My sister is seething. She is in Belgium and they are only 4% vaccinated and this will slow things down still further

"Even if there is a link why would you stop a vaccine programme that will save thousands of lives and help stop a pandemic because of a few deaths?

...because there is very little threat posed to me from the virus - I would only be having the vaccine as an altruistic measure to protect others.

That’s quite an ask when there are known safety concerns about the vaccine; it shifts the cost/benefit analysis quite dramatically."

Yes, but we'd need to know the actual risks at each age e.g. 1 in a million of getting a blood clot and one in hundred thousand of getting a serious version of Covid or whatever it is.
Then, there's not just the risk to yourself of getting the vaccine, but your personal interest in getting out of lockdown.

This is a classic 'Trolley Problem' scenario to my mind.

These countries don't want to take an action (giving the vaccine) because of the tiny possibility of killing one person...but the consequences of doing nothing will kill more people (of Covid, of cancer, of all the other conditions going untreated presently).

Psychologically it is easier to reconcile themselves to inaction causing deaths...it feels more passive and there is less of a sense of responsibility.

To my mind they are absolutely wrong.

@emmylousings

The way they are behaving is really odd; the idea that you apply this extreme version of the 'precautionary principle' during a pandemic is just bizarre and unhelpful for everyone. Its very clear - the blood clotting rates are normal - i.e. nothing to do with the vaccine. I have always been very 'Pro-European' with lots of respect for our neighbors, but this is undermining that respect for sure.

Again it’s a specific type of clot and presentation that has raised alarm. To be specific cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in connection with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia). It’s rare enough that it shouldn’t have been seen as many times as it has been in the number of people given the vaccine in the same time period. This hasn’t been seen in the UK.

Investigations will be taking into consideration lots of aspects including sex, medical history, medications along with studying the contents of the batch of vaccine these people have received and the manufacture and production process.

If a cause is established it means it can either be rectified or new guidelines can be drawn up. The same as what happened when the pfizer vaccine caused anaphylaxis early on its roll out.

@BuggerBognor That’s how my dad reacts to penicillin. It was scary to witness as a child.

Interesting article about France

Another poster here commented 15% France cases were Brazilian varient.
I wanted to fact check.
This article says 5% France south African or Brazilian

41% combination of British varient anglaise Kent and South africa/Brazilian with latter 2 being more resistant to vaccines however all 3 are more transmissible.

www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/New-Covid-variant-resistant-to-vaccines-found-in-France-as-country-tracks-spread-of-others

[quote mumsneedwine]@GreenWillow my colleague said that. She was 42, fit and healthy. She died of COVID last May. Her children really wish she'd had the chance of a vaccine. I say this because COVID can affect people who think they are safe. I know a 19 year old who can no longer stay awake for more than a few hours. And a 16 year old who needs a lung transplant. It's not all about dying.
Make a decision informed by facts. If that's no vaccine then fine. But don't think COVID can't hurt you. It can. [/quote]
Yes, we all know Covid CAN hurt younger people, the question is what the risk is though and it's generally low.

Has it occurred to anyone that the UK has the worst death toll in Europe
Excess deaths, which is the only valid method of measuring, are 21% in UK, similar to Belgium, Portugal, Spain. Death rate differences are very complex - background health, intergenerational living, population density etc.

That's quite a different discussion than deliberately delaying the only way out of the pandemic than any of us have.

I agree their actions have been wrong and irresponsible.

Though even if we had remained in the EU we would still not be directly impacted by this, as I am sure any UK government would have opted to go alone regardless for vaccination supply.