To think the EU countries are utter fuckwits over the AZ vaccine?

[annonnymous]

Words fail me at the utter stupidity and reckless behaviour of many EU countries over the whole vaccination thing and in particular the AZ vaccine.

40 people with blood clots with AZ ..... which is statistically lower than the average number of people who get blood clots anyway and the same as the Pfizer one! And the twatty french president saying AZ was quite ineffective in the over 65s and the whole of the EU slow the give it to over 65s because there was no evidence (because it wasn't tested on them) that it worked. It does, and sheer logic says it will. Your immune system doesn't fold up at 65.

With covid cases rising, Paris hospitals shipping out seriously ill patients to other areas, Italy in serious problems again, they need to stop this.

On no real evidence they are putting the lives of thousands of people at risk and putting a question mark over an effective vaccine which makes no profit and can be used worldwide cheaply.

The WHO say it's safe. FFS Europe, get a grip and stop the politics.

@Cailleach1

The thing is that all those countries who have paused Astra zeneca are perfectly entitled to do so? This is not an unusual thing. It happens with other vaccines too.

It was authorised by the European Medicines Agency, and they will be looking into it. They may have to look at the data and the correlations. Maybe it is a batch problem, so not a widespread thing. They may decide that the benefits outweigh the risks.

The review is being carried out by EMA's Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee (PRAC), the Committee responsible for the evaluation of safety issues for human medicines. Once the review is completed, PRAC will make any recommendations necessary to minimise risks and protect patients' health.

www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-continues-investigation-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-thromboembolic-events

We know Jo random on twitter or a blog has fierce opinions. However, I don't think I want them deciding if something like a vaccine is safe for use or not.

Yes but the issue with this is that pausing the vaccination programme is going against EMA recommendations - they have said continue while the investigation continues.

"While its investigation is ongoing, EMA currently remains of the view that the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine in preventing COVID-19, with its associated risk of hospitalisation and death, outweigh the risks of side effects."

www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-continues-investigation-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-thromboembolic-events

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

IMO some of them are thoroughly pissed off that the U.K., which was stupid enough to leave the EU, is not in a worse place re vaccination than they are, and humbly begging for help. According to all that is right and proper in their eyes, the EU should be steaming well ahead, with the poor old U.K. languishing far behind and rueing the day they voted to leave.

In particular Macron, who was one of the first to denigrate the AZ, was IMO severely wounded in his pride that the French Sanofi vaccine, which they’d been relying on, didn’t work - though I believe they’re still working on it.

Might add that I did vote Remain, albeit holding my nose to some extent, since unlike quite a few people I know, I was never a blind worshipper of the EU and all who sail in her.

I completely agree with you (and am a remainder for clarity). It does seem to be very much toys being thrown out of the pram, which I’d have thought the EU should have been above, but now I have my doubts

@RedcurrantPuff

But you would be free to choose not to be vaccinated, *@GreenWillow*. Why should it mean the vaccine should be stopped altogether?

I would agree with that, but as civil liberties will be restricted for people who decline the vaccine, your argument doesn’t hold true.

If it were rendered unlawful to discriminate on the basis of vaccine status, then yes I would wholeheartedly agree with you.

(We could have a debate here about the reasonableness of depriving anyone of their civil liberties on the basis of vaccine status, but I’d suggest that’s one for a different thread)

YANBU. Ridiculous and will give anti vaxxers more stupid ammo. Some people will win the lottery, fall in love or stub their toe after having the vaccine. Doesn't mean the vaccine caused it. Same with blood clots.

Yep. I was angry until I just read the details of this. It's not about the number of clotting incidents, it's about the unusual type. People have presented with a strange type of blood clotting incident post-vaccination, which is normally very rare. So I'm prepared to accept that yes, it's reasonable for that to be investigated, rather than just play a numbers game and ignore it.

I don't think anyone suggesting that they should ignore it. However, they need to look into why these unusual symptoms have happened in Norway but not in other countries despite the fact that millions of people in other countries have been vaccinated. Stopping vaccinations because four out of millions of people have suffered unusual symptoms does not seem sensible considering that in the meantime Covid will kill the proportion of those who did not get vaccinated during the delay period.

@Thewiseoneincognito

It does make you go hmmmm at how vocal those countries have been about halting their use of AZ.

I think much of the media coverage here is to do with now we get even fewer vaccines and it will take even longer. So a domestic problem for us, nothing to do with hating the british. I think the paranoid us vs them is in your perception not ours.

On the other hand, I'm sure the Health Departments of other countries, Or the Committee tasked with investigating this issue in the EMA would be devastated by the comments here.

JudgeRindersMinder it is not just EU countries that have paused the AZ vaccine, so how can it be about the EU throwing their toys out of the pram?

I think people might be loathe to have the AZ vaccine in Europe now even if it is reinstated. I also think that the anti-vaxxers are having a field day with this, which is a terrible shame.

@BigBeachWales

YANBU. Ridiculous and will give anti vaxxers more stupid ammo. Some people will win the lottery, fall in love or stub their toe after having the vaccine. Doesn't mean the vaccine caused it. Same with blood clots.

This is true. I wonder how many people have won the lottery since getting vaccinated. Let's ignore the fact that people who didn't get vaccinated also won the lottery and concentrate on the fact that it's a highly unusual event .

The point is the whole of Europe is not ''stupid and reckless'' but I understand in France 40% of population have said they will not be having a vaccination of any sort anyway. Why Europe is rejecting the AZ vaccine out right at the moment is v. hard to understand. Maybe they'll change their stance in a few days?

The head of the Italian medicines authority says he believes it’s a political decision

Why wasn't the Pfizer rollout suspended after this?
I wonder if the for profit pharma are in the ears of governments

www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/norway-investigates-deaths-23-elderly-pifzer-biontech-vaccine/amp/

OK for the third time, it's not the EU. The European Medicines Agency is still recommending the use of the vaccine. It's individual countries, which proves once again that individual countries have the power to make their own decisions. Denmark and Norway were the first two countries to pause the vaccine, and I'm sure they have perfectly capable and trustworthy teams of scientists.

If it is political, many people are not going to forget. And some wont forgive.

@oldegg123 , No it is not going against the EMA guidance. The programme is paused for investigation; they have not rejected the marketing authorisation of AZ. It is just a pause while it is investigated.

The Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee (PRAC) is the European Medicines Agency's (EMA) committee responsible for assessing and monitoring the safety of human medicines. They will be meeting and will issue a statement based on the outcome of that meeting.

@RedcurrantPuff

The head of the Italian medicines authority says he believes it’s a political decision

Wheres that been said please? Italy im finding puzzling lately High infection / lockdown Blocking Australia 250k vaccines from being exported. In talks with the Russians about manufacturing their vaccine in Italy.

I think it is very political - but for UK, not EU. Vaccination programme is the only good thing that UK government has done in this pandemic, so it's not surprising that they want to use it for their own agenda. And they obviously they got the right audience for that - some Brits will swallow every bullshit as long as it makes them feel better about themselves. Vast majority of EU countries doesn't care about UK, the Brexit topic isn't a topic anymore, because it doesn't affect them AT ALL. Honestly. Get a grip.I think it was a brexit slogan that every country has a right to sovereignty and independent decisions, so that what they do.

@Belladonna12

Yep. I was angry until I just read the details of this. It's not about the number of clotting incidents, it's about the unusual type. People have presented with a strange type of blood clotting incident post-vaccination, which is normally very rare. So I'm prepared to accept that yes, it's reasonable for that to be investigated, rather than just play a numbers game and ignore it.

I don't think anyone suggesting that they should ignore it. However, they need to look into why these unusual symptoms have happened in Norway but not in other countries despite the fact that millions of people in other countries have been vaccinated. Stopping vaccinations because four out of millions of people have suffered unusual symptoms does not seem sensible considering that in the meantime Covid will kill the proportion of those who did not get vaccinated during the delay period.

They are particularly concerned about this batch. They are pausing the vaccinations for a few days. AZ have delayed delivery on a number of occasions to Ireland. This has a much greater impact on vaccine rollout there than this slight pause. I think people are making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill in relation to this.

@coronabeer

"Clever scientists" - like the EMA - have recommended that the AZ covid vaccine is safe.

Macron and Germany supported the vaccine until the last couple of days and are only now suspending, awaiting EMA approval to go ahead, so it looks as though there is a review being undertaken, I think. Last I saw, Macron is hoping to announce the conclusion later today.

I know more that I would have ever liked about blood clotting, as my Dad, as the result of an E Coli infection, developed TTP - Thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura - something that he then had to deal with for 20 years.

What I did discover is how common blood clots are and, don't just take my word for it, thrombosisuk.org/thrombosis-statistics.php

There is no drug taken that is risk free, is anything we eat without risk and how many will die today of a blood clot who've not had the vaccine?

Is there a political agenda and power play going on here, I think perhaps, but it is an individual's choice and like much of this EU's actions people are often to the back of their thinking in far too much they shout about.

[quote BuggerBognor]@donewithitalltodayandxmas my husband had a severe adverse reaction to AZ which terrified me and my SN DS. DH is a doctor btw. Every single one of his colleagues was quite significantly unwell.

If the NHS doesn’t want wasted appointments they should give people the choice. Or maybe they’re worried nobody would choose AZ because of these (and other) adverse reports.[/quote]
What happened to him and his colleagues? I'm just curious - not going to refuse the vaccine or anything.

[quote Cailleach1]@oldegg123 , No it is not going against the EMA guidance. The programme is paused for investigation; they have not rejected the marketing authorisation of AZ. It is just a pause while it is investigated.

The Pharmacovigilance Risk Assessment Committee (PRAC) is the European Medicines Agency's (EMA) committee responsible for assessing and monitoring the safety of human medicines. They will be meeting and will issue a statement based on the outcome of that meeting.[/quote]
No - pausing the vaccination programme is going against EMA guidance. They have stated to continue the vaccination programme whilst they investigate. I didn't make any comments on marketing authorisation.

While its investigation is ongoing, EMA currently remains of the view that the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine in preventing COVID-19, with its associated risk of hospitalisation and death, outweigh the risks of side effects.

@tara66

The point is the whole of Europe is not ''stupid and reckless'' but I understand in France 40% of population have said they will not be having a vaccination of any sort anyway. Why Europe is rejecting the AZ vaccine out right at the moment is v. hard to understand. Maybe they'll change their stance in a few days?

The EU is not rejecting the AZ vaccine. The health bodies in a number of countries both within and outside the EU have paused the use of the AZ vaccine for a number of days while they gather further information about 4 cases in norway which were highly unusual and happened in young people. They are not typical of clotting reactions they would expect to see. It is a short pause while they gather further informations. Delays from AZ have actually caused a much greater impact on the vaccine rollout in many of these countries than this pause will.

"How old were the people who died or had blood clots after receiving the jab? They may have been a 74 year old overweight smoker, or maybe a 40 year old otherwise fit doctor. Statistically, a 40 year old fit person should not die or have a stroke because of a blood clot."

The Belgian nurse whose blood clot led to the loss of sight in one eye is 30. Belgium has not suspended the vaccine yet, but is taking it very seriously.

@donewithitalltodayandxmas were they unwell for a few days and then suddenly fine?