What happens about the unvaccinated ?

[vera99]

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

BungleandGeorge

People with HIV and access to modern treatments have virtually normal life expectancy these days. It’s not really the situation it was in the 80s where it was literally a death sentence. A lot of prejudice comes from fear”

Indeed it does. Which is why I’m shocked to read ChameleonClara‘s posts. She/he clearly has reason for her/his strongly held views.

I’m just very sad to think that after all these years and with the knowledge and treatments we now have, people with HIV are still stigmatised. I just didn’t realise. Feel a bit stupid now, tbh.

My peers and my kids honestly wouldn’t bat an eyelid.

@ChameleonClara

You haven't offended me. I'm honestly afraid that (presumably) good people can't see the issue with removing individual rights and espousing policies that are totalitarian.

I think Britain is creeping closer to a very dangerous place as nice people don't see the harm in a little bit of fascism if done for good reasons.

We need good people to start thinking things through more. It isn't lack of education, something else is causing this problem.

So genuine question what would be your solution for the current scenario? We treat the unvaccinated the same as the vaccinated and rely on numbers for lockdown if need to as we won’t achieve herd immunity. Also I take lockdown is not an option because it suppresses personal rights. So we just live as if there was no virus and those who die because of COVID , lack of hospital bed when they have had an urgency of any other type etc though.... ?

It’s fine if you don’t want the vaccine but don’t expect to be treated the same as If someone that has taken the chance and taken it. There is another thread about someone employing someone else who is refusing to take the vaccine , despite they work for a “risky” role where they could infect a few. The op is worried she’ll have to pay sickness pay for this person if they caught COVID and they might have to even self isolate themselves. Doesn’t this suppress their rights as well? I think some rights will have to be “removed” call it “have a vaccine even if I didn’t want it” or stay at home for another 3 months or whatever until the pandemic is under control (globally)

The view that people's medical status/history should not be private is genuinely disgusting and dangerous

I dont agree with a lot of what you say @ChameleonClara but this is spot on!

We don't even know yet how long immunity lasts after a vaccine, it's still all a big trial that the manufacturers accept no liability for.
I think a lot of younger people won't have it unless they are forced to as otherwise they can't lead a normal life. It's frightening really that freedom of choice is being taken away for a virus that is mild for the vast majority of younger people. It all feels a bit 1984 and "the unvaccinated" will be looked down upon and are segregated. I have had all my other vaccines but have no desire for this one as the benefit does not exceed the potential risk for me. I've had lots of friends who've had covid, lots didn't know they even had it but found out with random testing. Others just had a mild cold. Friends who have had the jab only have because they felt they had no choice as couldn't see their families abroad etc. It's just feels wrong to me.

Please sign this petition against the rollout of vaccine passports if you feel the same:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/569957

@BeingATwatItsABingThing
This may have been mentioned in the subsequent posts but just because someone has a vaccine doesn't give them any more freedom than those who haven't. Everyone must abide by the same rules., vaccinated or not.

@DenisetheMenace

ChameleonClara

I can only tell you what I know, which is that I don’t stigmatise someone with HIV any more than I do someone with cancer, MS, dementia. None of my friends do either, I suppose we’re of like mind.
If you tell me otherwise, I’ve no reason to doubt you but it’s not my experience.
Not sure what else I can say 🤷‍♀️

1 in 5 people with HIV don't even tell their GP due to the stigma.

HIV clinics can make confidential covid vaccination referrals for people in group 6 due to HIV, because the NHS and government recognise how much stigma there still is.

inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-vaccine-hiv-nhs-england-access-without-gp-sexual-health-881621

I would love to live in your world where there is no stigma attached to HIV, but that's just not the reality.

@DownstairsMixUp flu is very much less infectious than covid. In years when there is poor coverage by the flu vaccine the mortality and morbidity is not the same as for covid. The take up is also pretty poor in younger patients. They are quite different diseases both in their spread and in their effect on the body and in the groups they affect most. Lots of viruses are quite severe in some people but they all behave quite differently!

And what proof do you want? Because apart from a flimsy piece of card that will ruin easy or can easily be lost no one has anything

Yeah the discrimination on this is already going the same way as it did re. face masks.

@DenisetheMenace People with HIV absolutely do feel stigma. They shouldnt have to but they do.

Are you trying to say there is shame in Covid? Because in which case you have contradicted yourself because you have just intimated that illness is a moral failing? So which is it that you believe? It cant be both.

@DenisetheMenace You seem to want those who have Covid to feel some sort of stigma. Cant you see that is a similar attitude that was shown to those who contracted HIV.

Indeed it does. Which is why I’m shocked to read ChameleonClara‘s posts. She/he clearly has reason for her/his strongly held views.

My reason is I value individuals and human rights.

I hate when having a strong view is dismissed as bring for 'reasons' with the insinuation there's maybe something a little wrong with a person's head.

I'm glad others have backed up about HIV stigma.

If you want people's medical history made public, or compulsory vaccination - you are a little bit fascist. Just own it. I am a liberal and believe in human rights. That's why I have strong feelings.

*Im honestly afraid that (presumably) good people can't see the issue with removing individual rights and espousing policies that are totalitarian.

I think Britain is creeping closer to a very dangerous place as nice people don't see the harm in a little bit of fascism if done for good reasons.

We need good people to start thinking things through more. It isn't lack of education, something else is causing this problem*
So well said @chameloncara I agree with you 100‰. I find it scary how much people take at face value rather than analyse themselves and secondly how flippant some are over our privacy rights. Sad thing is if we lose these rights it'll be near impossible to get them back for a long time.

@ChameleonClara^^

MercyBooth

@DenisetheMenace You seem to want those who have Covid to feel some sort of stigma. Cant you see that is a similar attitude that was shown to those who contracted HIV“

How on earth do you draw that conclusion? Not at all. Contacting an illness when there is no prevention available is no-one’s fault.

Now that there is a vaccine though, I absolutely do believe that everyone who can should be vaccinated, for everyone’s sake (especially those who can’t have it and are left vulnerable).

@DenisetheMenace

MercyBooth

@DenisetheMenace You seem to want those who have Covid to feel some sort of stigma. Cant you see that is a similar attitude that was shown to those who contracted HIV“

How on earth do you draw that conclusion? Not at all. Contacting an illness when there is no prevention available is no-one’s fault.

Now that there is a vaccine though, I absolutely do believe that everyone who can should be vaccinated, for everyone’s sake (especially those who can’t have it and are left vulnerable).

Do you feel the same about the flu vaccine? That everyone should have it because it’s available?

Also agree about HIV stigma. Am old enough to have been around when it first reared its ugly head. I don't think society is completely past it being a stigma, not yet, even though good treatments make it no longer a death sentence.

Agree with privacy of medical records, too. Do people really think it's OK for things like records of mental health issues to be accessible? We must be vigilant about going down that slippery slope.

I think people should

1. Get the vaccine if they want, as and when they are offered.

1. Mind their own business about other peoples’ choices.

1. Stop trying to drag us into a totalitarian state where the population are forced/coerced into having medical treatments against their will. The next treatment we’re forced/coerced to have might well be one you’re uncomfortable with. Stop trying to throw away other peoples’ rights, because they’re your rights too, and if you don’t have them you will miss them, sooner or later you’ll be sorry you offered them up so readily.

Bumbleymummy

Yes, I do feel the same about the ‘flu vaccine. Always had it done at Morrison’s or Sainsbury’s pharmacies before I became eligible on the NHS.

Thanks @DenisetheMenace it’s good to know where you’re coming from. If you think we should be vaccinating everyone against flu every year then it’s not surprising that you want to vaccinate everyone against COVID too. Personally, I’m not to keen on vaccinating people annually against things that they aren’t actually a huge risk to them ‘for the greater good’ but each to their own.

I’m for vaccinated everyone (unless medical exemption) as it’s for the benefit of them , the rest of the population and the NHS.

The first right of everyone should be the right to live. All other "rights" are secondary to this. Anyone threatening this right is a criminal and should be prosecuted as such no matter how much they bleat about their "rights".

Anti-vaxxers are more dangerous to society than ANY terrorist group has ever been and it's about time we started treating them as such.

🙄 don’t be ridiculous.

@notrub I think you need a wee lie down.

I take covid REALLY seriously and am definitely verging towards doom monger but I don't view anti-vaxxers as akin to terrorists, no.

Also human rights cannot be traded off like that, you fundamentally misunderstand human rights.

Rights must be balanced.