What happens about the unvaccinated ?

[vera99]

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

I am in the allergy camp but haven't had a serious allergic reaction that has gone on the doctor's record. And yet I am so sensitive to so many things. I have to avoid perfumes, PPD, body creams unless they are basically pure oil or shea butter, any drinks with sulphites or either Aspartame or Acesulfame K, household cleaning chemicals, lots of flowers - especially lilies which make me particularly poorly, washing powders, brightly coloured sweets.

I actively avoid lots of things that I know make me ill. I don't take medication for anything and would be reluctant to do so unless absolutely necessary. I mitigate this by eating healthily, exercising and taking very high doses of vitamin D, K and C. And moderate amounts of the others.

I am very healthy living like this and don't ever visit the doctor. Nor do my children. So I resent so much the idea of vaccine passports because I can't and won't take this vaccine and am unlikely to get a medical exemption with, as Hancock puts it, a certified medical reason why not. I have complied with all the restrictions on the basis that I get my liberty back once it calms down. I absolutely will not be held to ransom with an experimental vaccine, the reactions of which are shocking and which I genuinely fear might make me ill or cause longer term autoimmune problems when COVID itself would pose no or little risk and i have probably already had it last March.

@dividedwefall I have had anaphylactic shock snd ha e several other recorded allergies, but the AstraZeneca vaccine was fine for me.

Are you really trying to compare covid to smallpox and measles?

The older generation should hang their head in shame? Many of the older generation can remember losing loved ones when vaccines were not available to people. Presumably, that’s the bit you really wanted deleted

Here you go. I won’t deal with people who are abusive.

Any forced/coerced treatment is exactly what countless thousands died in WW2 to prevent. Do you really think that people should give up those protections for you?

NAT6999 - so interested to read your post. I too have an autoimmune condition and I am very nervous about having the vaccine but also unhappy about possibly being labelled an 'anti vaxxer'. The given advice is that there is no evidence to suggest that the vaccine is not suitable for people with auto immune conditions but, unfortunately, as it is still early days in terms of this vaccine, there is no evidence either way yet!!

Any forced/coerced treatment is exactly what countless thousands died in WW2 to prevent. Do you really think that people should give up those protections for you?“

Yes, my English grandfathers. One came home, one died. My husband’s German grandfather also died. All of their descendants are fully supportive of vaccines and my mother believes the Covid vaccine should be mandatory for all public facing workers.

I’m very happy to be vaccinated to protect vulnerable people in the society we all share, as are my children. Why aren’t you?

@DenisetheMenace

Any forced/coerced treatment is exactly what countless thousands died in WW2 to prevent. Do you really think that people should give up those protections for you?“

Yes, my English grandfathers. One came home, one died. My husband’s German grandfather also died. All of their descendants are fully supportive of vaccines and my mother believes the Covid vaccine should be mandatory for all public facing workers.

I’m very happy to be vaccinated to protect vulnerable people in the society we all share, as are my children. Why aren’t you?

It’s not about whether you want the vaccine or not it’s about protection the freedom of choice.

Why do you assume I’m not getting the vaccine? I’ve previously stated that’s not my concern here.

@bumbleymummy

Are you really trying to compare covid to smallpox and measles?

Covid's CFR is slightly higher than measles.

@reformedcharacters

The older generation should hang their head in shame? Many of the older generation can remember losing loved ones when vaccines were not available to people. Presumably, that’s the bit you really wanted deleted

Here you go. I won’t deal with people who are abusive.

Any forced/coerced treatment is exactly what countless thousands died in WW2 to prevent. Do you really think that people should give up those protections for you?

"Any forced/coerced treatment is exactly what countless thousands died in WW2 to prevent."

I'm fairly CERTAIN the Nazis didn't have a mass vaccination program in place that was the reason why the Allies had to fight them.

When you have to LIE to make an argument, you really DON'T have an argument to make do you??

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt, I will not reveal my vaccine status as at least as of today that’s my private medical information.

@notrub not necessarily. Many people with COVID on the death certificate didn't necessarily die from COVID itself. The data on who actually died from COVID (admitted for, treated for, died from) is not forthcoming for some reason. Some hospital trusts have claimed in FOIs that they don't keep a tally!

notrub

Here you go.

No wonder we’re in this mess if I have to post this.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)17619-8/fulltext

reformedcharacters

It’s not about whether you want the vaccine or not it’s about protection the freedom of choice.
Why do you assume I’m not getting the vaccine? I’ve previously stated that’s not my concern here.”

Do you not believe that some things have far too big an impact on society to be left to freedom of choice? I believe public health is one of those things and in certain circumstances must be legislated for.

On your second point, apologies, you’re right, I did assume.

@DenisetheMenace

reformedcharacters

It’s not about whether you want the vaccine or not it’s about protection the freedom of choice.
Why do you assume I’m not getting the vaccine? I’ve previously stated that’s not my concern here.”

Do you not believe that some things have far too big an impact on society to be left to freedom of choice? I believe public health is one of those things and in certain circumstances must be legislated for.

On your second point, apologies, you’re right, I did assume.

Yes I do believe there could be times when public health should take priority but I do not believe that covid is.

We had a family member die of a pneumonia type illness at the beginning of November 2019 and doctors at the time could not work out the cause. Myself and my partner spent considerable time with them when they were on a ventilator. We have since discovered that doctors now suspect it was covid and I can well believe it as both DP and I have been exposed to positive cases on numerous occasions and never caught it. There’s still so much we don’t know.

[quote dividedwefall]@notrub not necessarily. Many people with COVID on the death certificate didn't necessarily die from COVID itself. The data on who actually died from COVID (admitted for, treated for, died from) is not forthcoming for some reason. Some hospital trusts have claimed in FOIs that they don't keep a tally![/quote]
Covid on the death certificate MEANS it was a contributing factor in their death in the opinion of the doctor signing it off.

The fact that the excess death count closely matches the death certificate figures, with the exception of the first wave where due to the lack of testing GP's COULDN'T put down covid because they had no evidence, PROVES that covid was almost certainly the MAIN cause of death.

But there'll always be an idiot trying to claim that it's all a con.

Have you burned down any 5G masts lately?

bumbleymummy

Are you really trying to compare covid to smallpox and measles?“

This strain, no, thank providence.
I am very fearful though that future variants may result in a high death rate among children, as did the second wave of the “Spanish” flu in 1919, having previously not affected them badly.
My children have had the ‘flu vaccine since they were small. One because it is recommended for asthmatics and the other because we would just rather she didn’t become very unwell if we could help it. They will be having the Covid jab ASAP and our daughter is hopeful that a version for children will be approved soon, when she will have her baby protected.

We are blessed with a safe, effective vaccine history in the UK. Some people don’t understand just how precarious life was before we did and have become complacent and happy to rely on everyone else to keep their children safe. To me anyway, that’s just wrong.

Nat6999 dividedwefall
I understand exactly where you are coming from.

At the moment I can’t see how I can have the vaccine purely on a financial basis.
I am supporting my whole family. We all lost our jobs at the beginning of the first lockdown and whilst they are picking up days here and there I am the sole breadwinner and if I don’t work I don’t get paid so illness aside I cannot afford to take time off work
I know if I have the vaccine I will be ill and probably be unable to work for several weeks. That would mean I will lose my home

I have had Covid. It was really bad and I have had long Covid. I am still not up to the physical fitness I was 15 months ago. I am most likely immune to it given who I have been mixing/working with. Personally if you took away the cough then I have been worse after a flu jab.
I have finally persuaded a doctor to refer me for allergy testing. I can’t go through the rest of my life living off antihistamines and hydrocortisone.

We had a family member die of a pneumonia type illness at the beginning of November 2019 and doctors at the time could not work out the cause. Myself and my partner spent considerable time with them when they were on a ventilator. We have since discovered that doctors now suspect it was covid and I can well believe it as both DP and I have been exposed to positive cases on numerous occasions and never caught it. There’s still so much we don’t know.”

I think you’re probably right. A friend told me in early December 2019 after recovering from the worst ‘flu she had ever experienced, that she “honestly thought I was going to die”. Her husband was subsequently ill, her son not.

Of course, you would only know if you had contracted Covid if you were symptomatic.

notrub

Covid on the death certificate MEANS it was a contributing factor in their death in the opinion of the doctor signing it off.

You are completely wrong here. They calculate covid deaths as in 'died within 28 days of a positive test for coronavirus'. That's on the government website : www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting
Scroll to bottom, point 4: Conclusion.

I should add, the family member was in ICU for a month but for 1 of those weeks DP had to stay away as we had cold like symptoms.

@notrub there is only one idiot in this conversation and it is the poster that is a)wrong and b)abusive because their argument is wrong.

You just need to mention Bill Gates and Microchips and I'll have a line on my bingo card.

@Vaiana there are three methods of calculating Covid deaths.

Method One is quick and dirty, the PHE method you refer to in your post. Undercounted deaths massively at the beginning of the epidemic when there was very little testing, now possibly overcounts a little because so many people are tested in hospital. Has the advantage of speed.

Method two is the more bespoke method notrub was talking about, it’s the ONS count of how many deaths had Covid on the death certificate as a contributing factor in the professional opinion of the attending doctor.

Method three is more statistical, it looks at the total number of deaths recorded and the extent to which it exceeds the 5 year average. Not subtle, but very useful for international comparisons especially in middle income countries where death certificate data may not be so fully available, and a useful rejoinder to anyone who thinks that method two is seriously overstating Covid deaths.

@DenisetheMenace

bumbleymummy

Are you really trying to compare covid to smallpox and measles?“

This strain, no, thank providence.
I am very fearful though that future variants may result in a high death rate among children, as did the second wave of the “Spanish” flu in 1919, having previously not affected them badly.
My children have had the ‘flu vaccine since they were small. One because it is recommended for asthmatics and the other because we would just rather she didn’t become very unwell if we could help it. They will be having the Covid jab ASAP and our daughter is hopeful that a version for children will be approved soon, when she will have her baby protected.

We are blessed with a safe, effective vaccine history in the UK. Some people don’t understand just how precarious life was before we did and have become complacent and happy to rely on everyone else to keep their children safe. To me anyway, that’s just wrong.

The same thing could happen with flu every year. People spend far too much time worrying about worst case scenarios that may never happen.

And despite the ‘precarious situation’ of life humans managed to survive and thrive even without vaccinations. We now have vaccines to protect the vulnerable who are most likely to get seriously ill. I’m not relying on anyone to keep me or my children safe. We’re incredibly low risk and people contracting the virus and recovering with immunity are also benefitting society.