What happens about the unvaccinated ?

[vera99]

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

Well IMO if you refuse the vaccine for reasons other than not being allowed to medically then you:

A) can’t demand a new lockdown in your region to protect you because there is a local outbreak and you are a greater risk of catching it.

B) can’t ask your employer to wfh because of said lockdown and expect them to bend over backwards to accommodate you.

C) moan and whinge about having covid and any after effects of long covid. Moan about lost earnings for having to self-isolate etc. You’ll just have to grin and bear it.

This reminds me of the times chickenpox outbreaks happened at my kids nurseries and school. I have 3 kids so witnessed a fair few outbreaks and ‘drama’ at the school gates. When there is a case reported and the mums start panicking I always tell them they can get their kids vaccinated within days (privately) and they more than likely won’t catch it, or if they do may only be one sibling affected. But no they seem happy for their kids to catch it and then bleat on SM how their kids are terribly poorly with it and the time they have to take off school/work. If they’d just lobbed out the £120 in the first place they’d have probably saved that in lost earnings. Ok not everyone can afford that, so again those people have my sympathies.

But when there is a free vaccine, proven to work and you don’t want it, Jesus do not expect me to empathise with you.

I have zero sympathy for anyone who refuses a vaccine that could stop them getting seriously ill. Obviously I hope they recover but, they are not only risking their own lives but the lives of those who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons.

That said I’m not a fan of forcing anyone to do anything, so if someone really, really doesn’t want one, fine. Just so you don’t cost the taxpayer a huge fortune in another lockdown then crack on. Let the financial implications of your actions be your responsibility not mine.

“ What if you do believe in science but you like your science to have been rigorously tested as it usually is? What if you are waiting for outcome of the long-term trials?”

Then you’ll have to put up with what other people (businesses / countries) will decide you’ve to do if you want to access their places.

The vaccination programme is not an experiment. The three Covid vaccines currently approved for use in the UK have already been shown to be safe and effective in clinical trials.

It’s normal that authorities continue to monitor the safety of these vaccines even after they have been approved. This monitoring happens with all vaccines, including those that have been in use for years, to detect any adverse effects. Just because studies into these vaccines are continuing, doesn’t mean anyone getting the vaccine in the nationwide roll-out is part of an experiment.

@Pensionista I skimmed the first quarter of the article you linked and got suspicious when I started seeing reference to criminal lawsuits. So I clicked on the link at the top to find out what the body was behind the hearing. It’s basically a group of lawyers alleging among other things that fraudulent testing has been used to give the appearance of a global pandemic.

Now, it is one thing to point out that the PCR tests are not perfect, LFT’s likewise. But describing them as fraudulent implies this is knowing and deliberate. Appearance of a pandemic.... the appearance of a pandemic does not come from testing, it comes from the overflowing hospitals and rapidly filling graveyards.

I call BS on your scientist friend.

So what does everyone expect people who are unable to get the vaccine (due to allergies/illnesses etc) to do? Stay at home and never show their faces in society again? Cause if you’re going to discriminate against those that wilfully don’t get the vaccine by excluding them from jobs, travel, leisure places, then you’re going to need to extend the same hostility to those who were medically unable to get the vaccine. There’s no way to differentiate between someone with a medical condition that excludes them from receiving it and those that have refused it.

While I agree that every person has the right to choose what they put in their bodies and the right to make the choice for their children I feel I have the same right to protect my family in a way that I see fit.
It is uncertain what the rules are going to be regarding vaccination requirements for schools/workplaces etc. however I do hope things become more clear before the end of lockdown so we can all make informed decisions. My OH and I will be getting vaccinated and will follow all lockdown restrictions until the point that we are fully immunized against this strain. We cannot control whether this virus will change but we can do what we can to protect ourselves from the known.

As far as my child goes, I would not intentionally expose him to any other disease so why would I do it in this case. I don't go around asking people what their children's vac status is but I make sure that my DS has had his vaccinations. While there is no vaccine for children at this stage I feel that they should have separate classrooms/playgroups etc. This may be the most far fetched idea but it is honestly how I feel. Children are not immune and while we do not have the ability to vaccinate them from this virus we should have the right to know who we are exposing them to and where is a safe place for them to be, whatever your choice. Once vaccinations are in place for all ages I am happy to continue with life as before knowing I have made the choice I am happy with for my family and happy that other peoples choices cannot affect us.

I honestly believe in the right to choose, I just don't want my choice to protect my family the only way I know how to be taken away.

@honeybee88 you’re batshit love. They are never in a million years going to segregate those who don’t have a vaccine.

Parker231

The vaccination programme is not an experiment. The three Covid vaccines currently approved for use in the UK have already been shown to be safe and effective in clinical trials.“

Wouldn’t care if they were. We applied for several trials, didn’t get on because they were oversubscribed.
Getting my jab in a few days. Can’t bloody wait 😃

Denise - totally agree. I’m a volunteer vaccinator so had my first AZ vaccine last Saturday. An exciting day - a step towards returning to a normal life again.

PuzzeledObserver
Please tell me how you can make a comment about a link that would take you at least half an hour to read. You simply cherry picked and thats why you have no idea what your talking about. There ARE trials being prepared under the Nuremberg Code. You can research this if you want. The SENIOR SCIENTIST IN MOLECULAR CELL RESEARCH with 20 years experience, gives a complete breakdown of how these NEW gene therapies work, but you seem to discount that because you read about the Nuremberg trials that ARE being prepared. Again, NO ONE knows what the future holds with these experimental gene therapies, they are EXPERIMENTAL , and they have a TEMPORARY Authorisation from the MRHA the EMA and the FDA. The MRHA tempory Authorisation can be found on the UK Gov website. They are not fully licensed because the trials will not be completed until 2023. If your so keen to call bullshit on this SCIENTIST, maybe you could take the time to 'google' her, where you will find she is an extremely well respected scientist by her peers, instead of 'skimming' the information and coming up with a bullshit answer.

ChancesWhatChances

@honeybee88 you’re batshit love. They are never in a million years going to segregate those who don’t have a vaccine.“

The IATA is developing a vaccine passport already. Quantas, Delta, Korean Airlines, Saga have announced no vaccination, no travel, more will no doubt follow.

Ursula von der Leyden has announced:

We'll present this month a legislative proposal for a Digital Green Pass. The aim is to provide:

•Proof that a person has been vaccinated
•Results of tests for those who couldn’t get a vaccine yet
•Info on COVID19 recovery

It will respect data protection, security & privacy“

CEO of a large UK nightclub group (can’t remember his name, sorry) was speaking on PM programme a couple of weeks ago. Said the idea of tests before entry was a nonsense and that they were calling for an app to provide proof of vaccination.

Some employers have already announced no vaccine, no employment.

It’s likely become quite a commonplace requirement because the vast majority are choosing to be vaccinated. It’s a profit driven business decision, plain and simple, based on what the majority of the public wants.

@DenisetheMenace they might be providing vaccine passports - which in itself is discrimination against those that are unable to receive the vaccine for medical reasons - but they will never segregate schools etc like PP said. It’s utterly batshit to suggest we’d go back a hundred years, we’ve already learned from history segregation = bad, discrimination, civil outcries and fighting.

@chancesWhatChances thanks, I love being called batshit for the way that I feel.

I know there is probably no chance of this happening but I wish we had more information on how to protect our kids, for those who do want the vaccine, that is. For example, will the lockdown measure of masks and temp taking still be applied to children, will they still need to be kept home with a cough etc.

I have just read your post above mine and I am sorry for your situation and hope that different options do become available for those who cannot take the vac due to medical grounds.

I think there are things that can be done so everyone can be comfortable with there choices or options available to them. We just don't know what they are yet. The travel one is easy, just get a test before and after if you are not vaccinated and show a clear result on entry either way. Work can be managed by either being vaccinated or not and for those with medical conditions I am sure every workplace can take precautions to suite.

My sticking point is children - how do I know what I am exposing my child to everyday?

I dont mean to offend anyone I just want to make informed choices for my family. I am sure we are all doing the same thing.

I imagine the millions of families who lost countless children to childhood diseases 100 years ago would have bitten your arm off for vaccines that our children are given free, from birth. As would the millions around the world who still don’t have access to them now. I don’t want to go back to the days when multiple children in every family died, do you? Covid doesn’t currently affect children. The “Spanish” flu didn’t in 1918 but it mutated and killed many in 1919.

A minority in this country have become very complacent and are more than happy to rely on everyone else to keep them and their children safe. Personally, I think there’s a serious discussion to be had around public schooling requiring public vaccinations.

For those children who can’t have vaccines, it’s even more important that everyone else’s do. It would be very easy to distinguish those families from who just don’t want them.

If you want the benefits of society, you have to take your share of the joint responsibilities it needs to function effectively.

Sorry, that was in reply to ChancesWhatChances

I can not debate with people who think vaccines change DNA or "hack" our bodies.

You do you.

@museumsandgalleries666

The unvaccinated will catch covid and probably die or be seriously ill. What on earth do they think is going to happen? That the act of refusing a vaccine makes them invincible?

What? If that was the case then the millions of people who contracted covid pre- vaccine would all be dead. For the majority of people this is a mild/asymptomatic illness. We’ve vaccinated the groups most likely to end up very ill.

[quote ChancesWhatChances]@honeybee88 you’re batshit love. They are never in a million years going to segregate those who don’t have a vaccine.[/quote]
Not sure what the need is to be disrespectful.

What? If that was the case then the millions of people who contracted covid pre- vaccine would all be dead. hmm For the majority of people this is a mild/asymptomatic illness. We’ve vaccinated the groups most likely to end up very ill

There is a very small group of people who can not have the vaccine for medical reasons who would likely end up very ill or die if they catch it. That is the last group we need to protect with herd immunity. Every vaccine refuser around them increases their risk.

[quote ChancesWhatChances]@DenisetheMenace they might be providing vaccine passports - which in itself is discrimination against those that are unable to receive the vaccine for medical reasons - but they will never segregate schools etc like PP said. It’s utterly batshit to suggest we’d go back a hundred years, we’ve already learned from history segregation = bad, discrimination, civil outcries and fighting.[/quote]
Oh my goodness, let me just keep my backward, bigoted views to myself!!!!

Let us not forget that being vaccinated or not is a CHOICE for the vast majority. So being "segregated" as you say would be a CHOICE. Also my far fetched idea is just that, AS I SAID in my OP. Nothing compared to what we have faced in history, and speaking as a black person from a country that has had REAL segregation with NO CHOICE, I think this is absurd to suggest that the way I feel about protecting my child from a virus and having a choice as to what he is exposed to is the same.

I really do feel for those unable to vaccinate on medical grounds and hope they have more options soon and my views on everyone being able to do what they want are still the same, regardless.

@DenisetheMenace

I imagine the millions of families who lost countless children to childhood diseases 100 years ago would have bitten your arm off for vaccines that our children are given free, from birth. As would the millions around the world who still don’t have access to them now. I don’t want to go back to the days when multiple children in every family died, do you? Covid doesn’t currently affect children. The “Spanish” flu didn’t in 1918 but it mutated and killed many in 1919.

A minority in this country have become very complacent and are more than happy to rely on everyone else to keep them and their children safe. Personally, I think there’s a serious discussion to be had around public schooling requiring public vaccinations.

For those children who can’t have vaccines, it’s even more important that everyone else’s do. It would be very easy to distinguish those families from who just don’t want them.

If you want the benefits of society, you have to take your share of the joint responsibilities it needs to function effectively.

YES!!! My thoughts exactly!!!

LarryWasAHappyChap

“There is a very small group of people who can not have the vaccine for medical reasons who would likely end up very ill or die if they catch it. That is the last group we need to protect with herd immunity. Every vaccine refuser around them increases their risk.“

Really feel for this group: because of CEV husband we’ve been frightened for a year but thank goodness he’s now vaccinated.

For them, this fear won’t end. Everyone who can, really needs to think about that and what it means.

The strange theme of this thread I’ve noticed, is that the majority of the disrespect comes from those who are vaccinated... Like: you think you have moral superiority to go ahead and call those who are not jumping for joy at being vaccinated ‘nuts’ ‘crazy’ ‘batshit’ ‘stupid’ etc.

I don’t understand how questioning things and making the choice to wait until there’s longer term effects published warrants complete abuse and total disregard for the possibility that your views may not be right.

Debate is healthy, abusing others for their views is not.

What I see here is those who are reluctant to be vaccinated actually seem far more respectful, open-minded and are not abusing those who have taken the vaccine.

Interesting...