What happens about the unvaccinated ?

[vera99]

There is a lot of speculation about how many will buy into the continuing vaccination program. Some has said 20% won't but I'm sure it will be less than that. We don't know any would be refuseniks. But say it's 10% and suppose Covid will become stronger and therefore potentially more lethal and troublesome will that not lead to many more deaths and hospitalisations amongst this cohort and by doing so threaten the capacity of the hospital's once again ? Hopefully not of course does anyone know of any modelling around that outcome. Therapeutics of course will be of importance to lessen any resultant disease and persuading the currently unpersuaded remains of paramount importance. The stick of no vaccine no travel or no entry will be a great persuader no doubt as well.

@LarryWasAHappyChap

What? If that was the case then the millions of people who contracted covid pre- vaccine would all be dead. hmm For the majority of people this is a mild/asymptomatic illness. We’ve vaccinated the groups most likely to end up very ill

There is a very small group of people who can not have the vaccine for medical reasons who would likely end up very ill or die if they catch it. That is the last group we need to protect with herd immunity. Every vaccine refuser around them increases their risk.

There is a very small group of people who can’t have other vaccines like flu every year but we don’t vaccinate everyone against it to protect them.

Lots of people are immune already because they’ve recovered from infection. They’re contributing to herd immunity too - it’s not just the vaccine that can confer immunity.

@DenisetheMenace

I imagine the millions of families who lost countless children to childhood diseases 100 years ago would have bitten your arm off for vaccines that our children are given free, from birth. As would the millions around the world who still don’t have access to them now. I don’t want to go back to the days when multiple children in every family died, do you? Covid doesn’t currently affect children. The “Spanish” flu didn’t in 1918 but it mutated and killed many in 1919.

A minority in this country have become very complacent and are more than happy to rely on everyone else to keep them and their children safe. Personally, I think there’s a serious discussion to be had around public schooling requiring public vaccinations.

For those children who can’t have vaccines, it’s even more important that everyone else’s do. It would be very easy to distinguish those families from who just don’t want them.

If you want the benefits of society, you have to take your share of the joint responsibilities it needs to function effectively.

Children are at the lowest risk from this disease. This is not like the childhood illnesses that we vaccinate against. A large proportion of children have already been exposed to covid through school.

@ChancesWhatChances
It is against human rights to make someone have medical treatment against their will. It is law. I never said anything about segregation? You have got that wrong as well.

I heard something on tv the other day about this.

It was saying that vaccine passports will differentiate between those who can’t have the vaccine for medical reasons and those who choose not to have it. So the ones who are medically unable would be permitted to do what the vaccinated could do. The ones who chose not to have it wouldn’t.

They should be immunity passports, not vaccine passports. The vaccine doesn’t guarantee immunity and people can be immune after recovery from infection. We know more about persistence of immunity after infection than we do about vaccine induced immunity atm.

Parker231

I'll just leave this here, with my other previous posts.

in-this-together.com/vaccine-trials/

@RMNMummy

ChancesWhatChances got me mixed up with HoneyB123.....
Need I say no more.

bumbleymummy

“Children are at the lowest risk from this disease. This is not like the childhood illnesses that we vaccinate against. A large proportion of children have already been exposed to covid through school.”

Agree, as I said. Future mutations unfortunately hold no such guarantee.

That is already the case for the yellow fever vaccine and similar. If you can't have it for medical reasons, you can present documentation from a physician stating this and this is fine.

Not only is it unethical to force or coerce ppl into having vaccines but it is also bad science. Many ppl on this thread seem to be ignorant of the fact that vaccines can and do drive the evolution of mutant virus strains. See for example www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants?t=1615369725374
Ppl on here get hysterical about the unproven theory that the unvaccinated may breed mutant strains but forget the known tendency of vaccine programs to drive mutations via selection pressure.

SheeshazAZ09

Not only is it unethical to force or coerce ppl into having vaccines but it is also bad science. Many ppl on this thread seem to be ignorant of the fact that vaccines can and do drive the evolution of mutant virus strains. See for example www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965703047/vaccines-could-drive-the-evolution-of-more-covid-19-mutants?t=1615369725374
Ppl on here get hysterical about the unproven theory that the unvaccinated may breed mutant strains but forget the known tendency of vaccine programs to drive mutations via selection pressure.“

Thanks but I’ll take the opinion of SAGE over a US Public radio station with a donate button on its home page 🙄

So we don’t vaccinate, and it will mutate.
Your American guy says we vaccinate and it will mutate😁

I’d go with vaccination personally.

@DenisetheMenace

bumbleymummy

“Children are at the lowest risk from this disease. This is not like the childhood illnesses that we vaccinate against. A large proportion of children have already been exposed to covid through school.”

Agree, as I said. Future mutations unfortunately hold no such guarantee.

Well there are no guarantees of anything. There could be a dangerous flu mutation in a few years but we’re not advocating flu vaccine passports and lockdowns to mitigate against that risk.

is that the majority of the disrespect comes from those who are vaccinated

Actually the majority of respect comes from those who are vaccinated as they are protecting everyone, and therefore respecting that we live in a large society. Those who aren’t vaccinating are the protecting no one and actively putting some people in danger. Is this respect?

Who has the highest levels of respect in this scenario? How would you define ‘respect?’

bumbleymummy

Well there are no guarantees of anything. There could be a dangerous flu mutation in a few years but we’re not advocating flu vaccine passports and lockdowns to mitigate against that risk.“

Indeed. Hence the need, IMO, for vaccines.
As you and I discussed yesterday, I would advocate ‘flu vaccine for everyone too.
There almost certainly will be a dangerous ‘flu mutation in a few years, that was expected this time round but we were surprised with Covid instead.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow what about all the people who got their immunity from contracting the disease - most of them pre-vaccine? They were the first to contribute to herd immunity. Do they not deserve ‘respect’ too? Or is it only people who are vaccinated because natural immunity ‘doesn’t count’?

You’re right @DenisetheMenace I forgot that was you. We’re not going to agree on that one 😊

ArseInTheCoOpWindow

So we don’t vaccinate, and it will mutate.
Your American guy says we vaccinate and it will mutate😁

I’d go with vaccination personally.“

Was that to me, AITC-OW?
Wish I could learn how to bold PPs comments without having to re-type them!

I was replying to SheeshazAZ09 and their expert, donate here, US PBR opinion .
I’m with you, vaccines all the way.

HolmeH - my that's quite a horrid thing to type. Many people are either sceptical of the efficacy of the vaccine or don't want it for other reasons. Should everyone be coerced? That sort of government / medical behaviour is something we all want to get away from surely.

To achieve herd immunity 90% of the population need to be vaccinated or immune.

I’ve understood that immunity from catching the disease doesn’t last.

Therefore a belt and braces approach i.e vaccinating those who’ve had the virus respects the fact that we live in a small densely populated island where it spreads easily.

It’s about respect for the population as a whole.

bumbleymummy

You’re right @DenisetheMenace I forgot that was you. We’re not going to agree on that one 😊

No, we’re not.
Your point about natural immunity is a good one. Those people would have to be monitored closely though because over time we would build up a bank of knowledge about extent and persistence immunity afforded by vaccine. Imagine that would be quite difficult logistically and additionally costly to collect from those with immunity after recovery?

DenisetheMenace, l was agreeing with you!!!

How can someone with a donate button be taken seriously!!! Remember America WAS the country that voted in Trump. So it’s full of random nutters.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

is that the majority of the disrespect comes from those who are vaccinated

Actually the majority of respect comes from those who are vaccinated as they are protecting everyone, and therefore respecting that we live in a large society. Those who aren’t vaccinating are the protecting no one and actively putting some people in danger. Is this respect?

Who has the highest levels of respect in this scenario? How would you define ‘respect?’

I said on this thread I have noticed this.

If we’re talking of wider society and the concept of respect, right - please tell me - if you personally touch something infected with the deadly virus, then proceed to touch someone’s hand and transfer the virus: does then it matter if you’re vaccinated in that interaction?

And re: personal insults on this thread - they are completely disrespectful - simply for questioning what we are being fed every day over the past year without actually reading up multiple sources and differing opinions... You know? The ability to critically think???

Go for the vaccine! All good! I won’t insult you for that decision. If the vaccine is so effective, why are you worried about those who aren’t? You’re protected, no? 😂

The totalitarian mindset, both left and right, puts the mass ahead of the individual.

I believe in human rights. Optional vaccination is a) ethically correct and b) more likely to ensure high take up with low costs.

I intend to get a vaccine, provided it is my free choice.

we’re talking of wider society and the concept of respect, right - please tell me - if you personally touch something infected with the deadly virus, then proceed to touch someone’s hand and transfer the virus: does then it matter if you’re vaccinated in that interaction?

Yeah, because you could just as easily touch yourself. And if the person you touch was vaccinated then they wouldn’t get it. What’s not to get?

I don’t know much about how it transfers, but the vaccine seems to reduce the chances of passing it on.