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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 13:58

The figures for over 80s contracting covid were low as a percentage of all over 80s, after the first wave care home shit show, @TrustTheGeneGenie

It's a sum I don't have the correct input numbers for so I should probably stop thinking about it Grin

Delatron · 04/03/2021 13:59

Right but the cleaner hasn’t been vaccinated or the broadband guy. Who was here all day.

Yet my parents have. So from a risk perspective?

It is about the economy. The government doesn’t care whether you haven’t seen family for a year. You can think that’s the right approach or not.

OverTheRubicon · 04/03/2021 14:08

@Delatron

Right but the cleaner hasn’t been vaccinated or the broadband guy. Who was here all day.

Yet my parents have. So from a risk perspective?

It is about the economy. The government doesn’t care whether you haven’t seen family for a year. You can think that’s the right approach or not.

You can see your mum outdoors, not your broadband guy. Your parents are vaccinated but that doesn't give them full immunity - so yes, they are less likely to catch it from you than your broadband guy, but if he's in his 20s, he'll almost certainly not get very ill, whereas they certainly could.

I'm a lone parent and have not seen my own overseas parents at all in over a year, because of the crappy English approach to covid that led to such massive numbers here, and the continued crapness that means numbers are actually rising in my area. Yes, outdoor mixing rules are horrible, but also, we have massively high rates compared with the rest of the world, so can't compare like with like.

Stovetopespresso · 04/03/2021 14:10

our risk rates may be higher than those other countries due to 2 thirds of us being overweight/obese? reaseach out today showed that's a massive risk factor. dunno otherwise, clutching at straws...
variants? less family-dependent /orientated than some other countries? so we will put up with it whereas other countries wont?

agree though, it sucks. nearly there fongers crossed.

catnoirr · 04/03/2021 14:11

before Covid, the only times I would ever fall sick, catch a cold, or my daughter catch something, would ALWAYS be directly after our monthly visit with the in-laws, (the only other house we would go to)

since Covid restrictions, magically, my daughter hasn't been sick, then when households were allowed to meet in September, we went to the inlaws ONCE and FIL blamed his cough and snuffly nose, on "allergies" , low and behold, me and dd came down with a horrendous cold, it shut me down for two weeks. Crying toddler for weeks couldn't sleep,

There is a reason why households mixing are the last to be released.
I could be unlucky tbh but I agree with the government on this one

Delatron · 04/03/2021 14:14

@OverTheRubicon I can’t see them outdoors as they’re four hours away.

But anyway. I personally feel the risk with seeing vaccinated parents inside is low. Nothing is 100% in this world but they are fit and healthy.

I won’t be able to as they are the other end it the country. Just in terms of risk assessment. I wouldn’t judge others who did this either.

notrub · 04/03/2021 14:55

And had the UK implemented stricter rules last February, we'd never have needed to lock down at all!

The UK has endured two extended lockdown periods because the government didn't impose restrictions when the number of cases were few. Once you get above a certain level of cases, Test & Trace becomes rather ineffective.

So in other countries you see relaxed rules for three different reasons:

  1. The outbreak is far more controlled there so they can afford to be slacker
  2. They are also incompetent and haven't learned lessons from 2020 (I'm looking at you Italy, France).
  3. Their populations are more sensible than in the UK s the government has less need to be prescriptive. (e.g. Sweden)

I'd like to say thankfully we in the UK HAVE learned a lesson, but I'll reserve the congratulations until I see HOW the government reacts to the data after schools go back. Will keeping R < 1 remain a priority, or will they once again give up with victory in sight and allow the virus to once again take over with an inevitable third lockdown later in the year.

Delatron · 04/03/2021 15:00

A third wave is surely only possible if the vaccines don’t work? And they do...

TrustTheGeneGenie · 04/03/2021 15:06

Their populations are more sensible than in the UK s the government has less need to be prescriptive. (e.g. Sweden)

This is bollocks.

onlychildandhamster · 04/03/2021 15:37

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Their populations are more sensible than in the UK s the government has less need to be prescriptive. (e.g. Sweden)

This is bollocks.

I agree. UK has a much higher level of inequality than our friends on the continent. my SIL got covid even though she stayed home. The reason was because she rents and her landlord sent these workmen down to do works on her apartment. The workmen told her they couldn't afford to be sick and not work.

In the UK, we have so many on low incomes and working people relying on food banks. I WFH and i am a firm believer in keeping to lockdown regulations but if it was a choice between obeying the rules or losing the roof over my head, all bets are off. I think it would be the same for anyone. Thats one of the big reasons why we still haven't managed to control infections despite lockdown/vaccinations.

notrub · 04/03/2021 16:01

"A third wave is surely only possible if the vaccines don’t work? And they do..."

So in your fantasy, you have a vaccine you're safe.....

Hmm - unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. Currently vaccines appear to reduce deaths by about 80% - that will fall as variations arise resistant to a vaccine.

The overall effect will depend on several factors:

  1. How many actually get vaccinated (including CHILDREN)
  2. How quickly the virus mutates to evade vaccine resistance.
  3. How much social interaction takes place.

So a reasonably predictable scenario would be for either say the Brazil strain, or something similar doing the rounds in June at a time when social restrictions are largely relaxed. It would spread like wildfire through those unvaccinated AND into the vaccinated population who ARE better protected, but not invulnerable.

There'd be NOTHING to prevent case numbers rising to 5x what they currently are and that's enough to offset the benefit of the vaccines, even assuming they're as effective against the new strain as they are against the current .

NB forget all this talk about boosters - that only works if you have forewarning of a new strain. If we have high local infections, by the time the updated vaccine is rolled out, it's too late to do any good.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 16:03

Even by mumsnet standards you sound wildly negative @notrub

notrub · 04/03/2021 16:23

@IrishMamaMia

Even by mumsnet standards you sound wildly negative *@notrub*
People told me that when I said last February that if the UK didn't close our borders, we'd be in lockdown within a month.

People told me that in July when I said we had rushed exiting lockdown, T&T wasn't ready and by the time it was, case numbers would be too high to do any good.

So it's not really surprising that people are still saying that - after all nearly half the country still thinks Brexit was a good idea, so the UK isn't exactly blessed with brains is it?

unmummsymummy21 · 04/03/2021 16:33

OP you're very right. There's a general feeling that our lockdowns have been a bit of a joke and not tough enough. I think that comes from looking at countries like Italy / Spain / France. Especially Italy - people were not allowed outside their homes by a certain distance ( even just for a walk ) for a while. There was also talk that people weren't going to be allowed to leave their houses at all and the army was going to bring food ( didn't happen ). But at certain points, people could not go freely for a walk outside and had to carry some kind of paper with them explaining why they were outside and were not allowed to go more than a certain distance from home ( a few hundred metres ). This is all info I received from relatives there and some of it could be BS by the way. But it seemed very strict compared to our first lock down at the time !

NaeBor · 04/03/2021 16:34

@notrub your dementor like post just makes me even more convinced that we should just lift the lockdown tomorrow.

If we're all completely fucked anyway then why exactly are we bothering?

Oh wait... we're not all completely fucked because for most people it's a mild illness. But even if it somehow mutated then we'd all be fucked so what's the point of locking down and wasting our last years?

I think that's the thing some of the lockdown fanatics forget... if these new variants are such a threat and it's only a matter of time until one becomes vax resistant then it seems completely inevitable and we might as well just let it "rip through the population like wildfire".

Delatron · 04/03/2021 17:23

@notrub
Ha my fantasy that the vaccines work? What planet are you on? I think I’ll listen to the scientists rather than a random Mumsnetter..

Have you told them the vaccines are a fantasy? They’d love to know.

Lifeaintalwaysempty · 04/03/2021 17:56

OP I haven't RTFT so I'm sure this point has been made but UK has had one of the worst death rates in the entire world. I don't think it's that surprising that we have had to have stricter restrictions in place as a result in order to bring infection rates down to a level where normal life can begin again without these numbers quickly rising again.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 18:13

@IrishMamaMia

Even by mumsnet standards you sound wildly negative *@notrub*
The scenario described is the one scientists are concerned about, the issue is use of definitives e.g. 'that will fall' when it should be 'that could fall'.

But the scenario itself is something we might face, if unlucky.

onlychildandhamster · 04/03/2021 18:18

Kinda expected this after budget but mentally preparing myself for lockdown to last till September

www.inyourarea.co.uk/news/england-lockdown-could-last-until-end-of-september-says-rishi-sunak/

notrub · 04/03/2021 18:35

[quote Delatron]@notrub
Ha my fantasy that the vaccines work? What planet are you on? I think I’ll listen to the scientists rather than a random Mumsnetter..

Have you told them the vaccines are a fantasy? They’d love to know.[/quote]
Apologies I used big words - let me try in more simple terms that you may be able to grasp.

1000 people don't take vaccine and get covid - 10 die
1000 people take vaccine and get covid - 2 die.

Oh and before you jump in and show your ignorance AGAIN. Vaccines don't stop you contracting a virus - they just increase the chance of your immune system fighting it off before the virus can make you ill, or before you can become contagious.

Avondklok · 04/03/2021 18:42

@Flippyferloppy

Erm, you've interpreted Belgium completely wrong. It's true that in theory DH and I can see different close contacts. BUT, we are only allowed 1 each. That means that because DH's son comes to our house and takes his mask off, we cannot mix with anyone else. Also, in Brussels you cannot leave home without a mask. Also, maximum gathering is 4. This has been the case since October, with no let-up for Christmas and none forseen.
Quite. Maybe we can a have a cuddle contact each, but then you couldn't have them all in your house, even one at a time. Once they're indoors mask off, that's the cuddle contact for everyone home. For single people, yes you can have 2, but not together. Plus masks at school. Curfew is to stop people having late night illicit meet ups. In Belgium the numbers have been steadily dropping since December but it has plateaued out now. People fed up with the rules, Some freezing cold weather where people met up indoors when they shouldn't have probably. Plus British variant.
Delatron · 04/03/2021 18:48

Are you actually ok @notrub you sound very angry. Can’t stand the thought of lockdown ending?

Thanks for the vaccine lesson. I do actually understand how vaccines work. Again I think I’ll listen to the scientists and experts on this one. Rather than a frothing mumsnetter.

You do realise in your ignorant, angry posts that vaccines prevent hospitalisation and severe disease in over 80% of the people that have them.
And for many people without the vaccine this is not a serious illness.

The hospitals won’t be overwhelmed. That’s the the actual goal in case you didn’t realise....

Delatron · 04/03/2021 18:50

Where did I say vaccines stop you contracting the virus? Of course they work by priming your immune system to fight off the virus. I think everyone knows that. 🙄

Who’s the ignorant one?

LastTrainEast · 04/03/2021 18:51

"a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes" Government and law enforcement always did, but you'll find common ground with child/spouse abusers who felt that government should look the other way.

LastTrainEast · 04/03/2021 18:58

@Mustfly

I've been amazed how compliant people have been with this rule in particular. I think the Government are probably shocked too. Personally I havent abided by it since the first lockdown when I believed it would be for three weeks only. Family and close friends have always been welcome in my home since then. Not in large groups but my sis and niece one day, my mom another. And vice versa. We all live close to each other and the idea of being banned from having coffee with my nearest a d dearest is ridiculous. Obviously if we felt unwell we steered clear. No covid between us, no regrets. Happily wear masks, follow all rules when out and about but I decide who I have in my home, not the government.
Good for you. I use my own judgment about drinking and driving too. Also speeding. I'm the best judge of how fast I can drive down residential streets and past schools.
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