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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
Quit4me · 04/03/2021 12:25

@AtSwimTwoBerts

But how can rates be increasing in lockdown?And if rates are increasing, what more can we do to stop them

Because the governement has crowed so much about how great they are with the vaccines and how everything will be open soon, that people have got cocky and decided they don't need to follow the rules anymore. People are doing what they want.
What do you think will happen?

Are they? I know people are meeting outside more perhaps but are lots of people meeting freely inside? I don’t believe so. Being practical, how would the government ensure more people comply? Do we have the man power to do this? Would stopping the odd few people meeting inside really make that much difference? The Brazil variant they are currently chasing, entered 2 weeks before hotel quarantine. Had we had stricter borders before Xmas these overseas variants wouldn’t have got in as easily. Saying lockdowns and continued infection numbers are due to the minority mixing is like taping a few pinprick holes in the hosepipe whilst the sprinklers on the end are on full blast.
TrustTheGeneGenie · 04/03/2021 12:28

@TheReluctantPhoenix

The U.K. public’s behaviour in December was utterly reprehensible. Maybe, as a nation, we need stricter laws, as we cannot act individually in the public interest.

I know this is multi faceted but the above is certainly a factor.

What exactly did the public do?
Delatron · 04/03/2021 12:29

Cases will increase but if people are not being hospitalised in huge numbers?

We’re not going for zero Covid. We’ve spent a year protecting the NHS.

Of course it’s important to open schools but I think personally no household mixing until mid May is too far away.

AtSwimTwoBerts · 04/03/2021 12:33

Are they? I know people are meeting outside more perhaps but are lots of people meeting freely inside? I don’t believe so

Yes, they are. Doesn't matter if you believe it. Its yet one more misstep from Boris et al.

Being practical, how would the government ensure more people comply? Do we have the man power to do this? Would stopping the odd few people meeting inside really make that much difference?

It's never been about forcing people to comply, its not really possible. It's been about expecting people to do the right thing, and some just won't.

IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 12:43

'As if Ireland would be doing anything to copy the U.K. 😂'

Well I'm Irish and I'd love in Ireland were vaccinating on the scale that the UK is.

Delatron · 04/03/2021 12:48

I think people will comply and do the right thing when the fear level is high. ‘Don’t kill your granny’ doesn’t wash anymore.

Maybe the government need to really explain why people who have been vaccinated can’t see family. People are making their own risk assessment. (I’m not saying this is right or I am doing this). If you have a policy that many don’t comply with you need a new strategy and policy.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 12:49

Apparently 4 in 10 over 80s are breaking lockdown rules already, which must be a concern as 80% protection still means 20% high impact cases, and their infection rates were low due to not mixing (they were almost hibernating!).

Ylvamoon · 04/03/2021 12:52

But how can rates be increasing in lockdown?And if rates are increasing, what more can we do to stop them

People not complying, population density and of course the age of the overall population (in terms of showing symptoms and getting tested).
We ned to look ate the demographics of individual areas. It's far more complex than just let's play lockdown #3.9

Which again leads to the OP's original post...

Delatron · 04/03/2021 12:55

You need to drill down in to the pockets of increase. For example in Leeds there was an outbreak in a prison so it looks like Leeds is on the increase...So we all stay in lockdown for months because there are pockets of outbreaks in prisons or hospitals?

It needs to be more nuanced. Certain areas of the country have rates so low they are negligible. Yet they stay locked down and unable to mix until mid May?

Gwenhwyfar · 04/03/2021 13:00

"not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual.

UK level of deaths is highly unusual too."

Compared to Belgium? Italy? US?
If you look at deaths per head, UK numbers are not that much higher.
Isn't there a support bubble in England? If so, the rules are similar to many other countries where one person outside of the household is allowed.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 13:07

If you look at deaths per head, UK numbers are not that much higher.

UK deaths are highest amongst the G20. I think 'not that much' is doing a lot of work in your sentence. UK deaths since Christmas are astoundingly bad.

There is time for the other nations to take over, I suppose.

Lockdownbear · 04/03/2021 13:10

@ChameleonClara

Apparently 4 in 10 over 80s are breaking lockdown rules already, which must be a concern as 80% protection still means 20% high impact cases, and their infection rates were low due to not mixing (they were almost hibernating!).
Not sure where that stat came from.

But an awful lot of over 80s will live alone, many will be vulnerable, but they'll be craving mental stimulation.

Nowhere to go, nothing to do, family dodging them scared incase they pass on the virus.They possibly aren't fit to walk in the park or spend lots of time outdoors.

One support bubble maybe isn't enough, in normal times care and support would often be divided between adult children, maybe a niece or nephew popping in, a friendly neighbour keeping an eye open and maybe a OAP club.
Old people living alone have been victims of this too.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 13:14

I don't doubt that any of that is true, my point was there may be viral consequences from this rapid behaviour change.

The stat 4 in 10 is widely reported today.

TrustTheGeneGenie · 04/03/2021 13:15

@ChameleonClara

Apparently 4 in 10 over 80s are breaking lockdown rules already, which must be a concern as 80% protection still means 20% high impact cases, and their infection rates were low due to not mixing (they were almost hibernating!).
No it means they're all 80 odd % less likely to need admission now not 20% of all over 80s will be admitted and in reality that may be higher if the vaccine reduces transmission because carers/ family may have also been vaccinated by now.
theleafandnotthetree · 04/03/2021 13:18

@Heyahun

As if Ireland would be doing anything to copy the U.K. 😂

Ireland lockdown rules came in before the U.K. last year and the rules are actually quite different!!

God yes, though in lots of respects I think 'we' - by which I mean the government, wider society etc have done pretty well and dare I say better than many other countries. I also think the non-clinical aspects of the Covid crisis have been handled pretty efficiently - in the speed with which things like the pandemic unemployment payments were rolled out for example. This has been an unprecedented crisis which rolled out in real time with few precedents and a slippery bugger of a virus. All told I think we've done ok up til now.
ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 13:18

Here is the tweet providing the source info from ONS mobile.twitter.com/ONS/status/1367407911828414466

Breastfeedingworries · 04/03/2021 13:19

Yup it’s crackers, hence why I don’t follow the rules at all. I see friends and loved ones, (discreetly) go out to work ect and live my life generally as normal. (I have had Covid and the jab to my second one is coming up)

I don’t even think about anymore or ever watch the news. The amount of stress and pressure I was putting on myself wasn’t healthy, so I’ve had to change my outlook. Wine

TrustTheGeneGenie · 04/03/2021 13:22

[quote ChameleonClara]Here is the tweet providing the source info from ONS mobile.twitter.com/ONS/status/1367407911828414466[/quote]
Yes but you've interpreted the outcome of that socialising totally wrong.

JudesBiggestFan · 04/03/2021 13:24

I've been amazed how compliant people have been with this rule in particular. I think the Government are probably shocked too. Personally I havent abided by it since the first lockdown when I believed it would be for three weeks only. Family and close friends have always been welcome in my home since then. Not in large groups but my sis and niece one day, my mom another. And vice versa. We all live close to each other and the idea of being banned from having coffee with my nearest a d dearest is ridiculous. Obviously if we felt unwell we steered clear. No covid between us, no regrets. Happily wear masks, follow all rules when out and about but I decide who I have in my home, not the government.

Quit4me · 04/03/2021 13:26

@AtSwimTwoBerts

Are they? I know people are meeting outside more perhaps but are lots of people meeting freely inside? I don’t believe so

Yes, they are. Doesn't matter if you believe it. Its yet one more misstep from Boris et al.

Being practical, how would the government ensure more people comply? Do we have the man power to do this? Would stopping the odd few people meeting inside really make that much difference?

It's never been about forcing people to comply, its not really possible. It's been about expecting people to do the right thing, and some just won't.

The vast majority of People did do the right thing in the first lockdown. They were scared into submission and it worked. Lots of bungling and letting cases get out of control (importing cases, schools with no mitigation’s and hospital spread) inbetween then and the next lockdown. People are not going to comply as well second time around. Fear tactics don’t work longer term and you can only expect people to not hug or see their families for so long. We were told this option was a nuclear option that was almost certain to never be used again. Why was a new varient allowed to spread here? Why did our government allow cases get so out of control in the Autumn? I don’t know anyone who is freely mixing inside and no one I know knows anyone freely mixing inside either. Schools are closed to the vast majority - esp secondary schools which had the greatest transmission. If there is another lockdown, expect even less compliance. People just won’t accept not seeing family for months and years
ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 13:32

No it means they're all 80 odd % less likely to need admission now not 20% of all over 80s will be admitted

Yes I absolutely get that - I expressed it badly - the point is 80% protection is not 100% and very few 80+ aged people were in the infection figures as they were not having contact.

ChameleonClara · 04/03/2021 13:35

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Happy to see some sums but if e.g 1000 unvaccinated over 80s get the virus, or 6000 vaccinated over 80s, how many will get hospitalised from each group?

TrustTheGeneGenie · 04/03/2021 13:43

[quote ChameleonClara]@TrustTheGeneGenie

Happy to see some sums but if e.g 1000 unvaccinated over 80s get the virus, or 6000 vaccinated over 80s, how many will get hospitalised from each group?[/quote]
It's impossible to know in reality. You're saying 20% will be hospitalised but that's assuming all 80 year olds who catch covid would have been hospitalised pre vaccine and that's obviously not the case.

TrustTheGeneGenie · 04/03/2021 13:44

@ChameleonClara

No it means they're all 80 odd % less likely to need admission now not 20% of all over 80s will be admitted

Yes I absolutely get that - I expressed it badly - the point is 80% protection is not 100% and very few 80+ aged people were in the infection figures as they were not having contact.

What age are people in care homes? With home carers? In hospital already?

They may not have been having a tea with friends but they have had plenty of contact. If they hadn't none of them would have caught it!

OverTheRubicon · 04/03/2021 13:55

@Delatron

I agree OP.

It’s because household mixing makes no money for the government. So this week my cleaner has been, broadband guy was in my house all day. Yet I can’t have my vaccinated parents over and haven’t seen them since summer.

France have got it right in my opinion. And knowing the French if they had been told a year down the line families weren’t allowed to mix, grandparents couldn’t see grandchildren they wouldn’t have stood for it.

It should be advice here and not law. Especially now many grandparents are vaccinated. Yet it’s still another two months until we can mix indoors. But hey we can all sit on a bench with someone from next week.

Bollocks. Are you hugging your cleaner? Sitting across a table chatting to your broadband guy for an hour or two, without masks because you're both drinking a cup of tea?

Of course not. So having services makes sense because not only does it preserve people's incomes, the risk is far far lower.