Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
IrishMamaMia · 04/03/2021 19:08

I hope not @chameleonclara just thought it was unusual that @notrub seemed to make extremely negative statements like she has a crystal ball and has some kind of hotline to Chris Whitty . The UK is the WORST and the vaccines WILL FAIL. Lots of countries are doing okay now all things considered and I'm sure at some point we will too.

wanderings · 04/03/2021 19:25

@applesandoranges221 I too agree that "furlough will be extended" was not good news. It gives Saint Boris and his merry men the perfect right to extend lockdown, just because they can.

It is fucking inhumane that visiting our own families is a criminal offence.

Bring on the riots and civil unrest. I can't believe this still hasn't happened. It's a scary indication of how effective the government's brainwashing and spin is at keeping the public docile and obedient.

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 22:35

Thanks for all the replies. I felt a lot better after just writing the post to be honest! Thank you to everyone who has expressed support. Also interesting to read those who don't agree - I'm glad that this has sparked a good discussion.

OP posts:
ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 22:58

@Flaxmeadow

MissLucyEyelesbarrow However, your analysis is disingenuous because many of the countries you mention (Spain, Italy, France, for a start) have had much tighter controls than the UK on leaving your own home at all, at times when their national infection rates have been high. You don't need to ban household mixing if no one is allowed to leave their house in the first place (except to shop for basic necessities).

Yes. I came on the thread to say exactly this ^

OP You are being massively disingenuous. Other major European countries did not need to ban household mixing because they couldn't mix with another household by virtue of the fact that people were only allowed out to shop at a local supermarket and then to return home immediately. Some even had carry papers to prove they were outside for this reason.

I'm not being disingenuous, you're just talking about a different thing. You're both talking about measures during a short full lockdown period, not measures ongoing for the best part of a year.

I did say upthread that some countries had de facto household mixing bans during their strictest lockdowns, particularly early on in the pandemic. Although, certainly not all countries did - countries such as Netherlands, Switzerland and all Nordic countries had far lighter spring lockdowns than us, with very few restrictions on outdoor activities and no ban on indoor mixing at any point. Germany also had significantly lighter restrictions than us during the first lockdown.

But, even in countries with the kind of hard lockdowns that you describe, they are temporary. A full lockdown will last a few weeks, or at most a few months, and then the country will need to start to reopen and you will get your life back.

The thing which most disturbs me in this country is that the government has shown that it is willing to comprehensively reopen the economy while keeping people's family lives 100% locked down, indefinitely. That is completely different to other countries, including the strict lockdown countries, where small private gatherings have typically been among the last things to be banned and the first things to be allowed again.

You could perhaps say that tier 2 actually disturbs me more than tier 4.

OP posts:
MercyBooth · 04/03/2021 23:31

However, are you denying that after the December unlocking many people decided to have a normal December, regardless of Corona

Thats not what she asked. She asked for a link. As i finish reading the thread will i see that you have provided one.

And maybe the people that did see each other already did their bit by not going on the fucking ski trips earlier in the year.
I havent been abroad since 1986 Im sick of the psychological abuse, gaslighting and bullying we have endured over the last year. People can see now that whatever they do, whatever sacrifices they make it will never be enough. Instead of being thanked they will be blamed and scapegoated. Its happened already. How many more sacrifices are poorer communities going to have to make so the more well off who brought it in in the first place can go on their holibobs! Because thats what its really about on this board.

MercyBooth · 04/03/2021 23:34

And lets not forget the OMG sensationalist press conference on 19th December which backfired on them resulting in the ensuing events in Kent.

Dowser · 04/03/2021 23:48

@Breastfeedingworries

Yup it’s crackers, hence why I don’t follow the rules at all. I see friends and loved ones, (discreetly) go out to work ect and live my life generally as normal. (I have had Covid and the jab to my second one is coming up)

I don’t even think about anymore or ever watch the news. The amount of stress and pressure I was putting on myself wasn’t healthy, so I’ve had to change my outlook. Wine

👍
Dowser · 04/03/2021 23:50

@freckles20

That is interesting OP. I'm from Leicester and has been brutal.

My elderly DF and DM live alone but separately so forming bubbles has been a huge issue. Both are shadows of their former selves, I think my Dad would prefer his life to end soon than live like this.

My teenage son has become extremely withdrawn and his MH has been badly affected. He's had barely any face to face social contact. He's beyond the age where he wants to spend time with me. It's a completely normal developmental stage, he needs his friends but has been under the tightest restrictions for the whole time. I am extremely worried about him.

In my family the danger to our health is now lockdown not covid. The damage has already been done, it won't simply disappear if we 'hang on a bit longer' for restrictions to lift.

What has been done to the people of Leicester has been disgraceful..and I’m not even from there It’s like the forgotten city. Well I haven’t forgotten you and I hope you are managing to get a bit of normality..from goodness knows somewhere.
GoneCrazy · 05/03/2021 00:00

OP I was just about to post about the immense amount of anxiety this has caused me. I miss my mum who is a cancer survivor terribly. She works with the public day in day out in essential retail. Yet I can’t visit her. She’s 110 miles away so I would struggle to say it’s a childcare bubble.

My children have not seen their Grandmother since last year.

In the meantime I can send them into a classroom of 30 other kids and we can mix with 60 other families as there are 30 kids per class. Ridiculous. We follow the rules and my DH is not comfortable with us travelling to see family

PoochiePlush · 05/03/2021 00:00

The UK are hopefully coming out of lockdown for good.

You might say other countries have been less strict... but Italy and France are about to go into another lockdown and possibly closing schools

So really - everything is easy with hindsight and no-one is out of the woods yet.

Everyone country is doing the best they can

ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 01:08

@Flippyferloppy

Erm, you've interpreted Belgium completely wrong. It's true that in theory DH and I can see different close contacts. BUT, we are only allowed 1 each. That means that because DH's son comes to our house and takes his mask off, we cannot mix with anyone else. Also, in Brussels you cannot leave home without a mask. Also, maximum gathering is 4. This has been the case since October, with no let-up for Christmas and none forseen.
OK thanks for the clarification. That is slightly different to what I understood. My source was www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2020/12/24/so-what-are-the-christmas-rules/

(specifically about Christmas, but suggests that those are the same rules as normal)

And also www.info-coronavirus.be/en/faq/#id_4

And www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/138837/one-cuddle-contact-no-visits-belgium-new-contact-rules-work-lockdown-steven-van-gucht-household-visitors-family-housemates-outdoor-groups/

I understood from these that a cuddle contact was an individual right of each person, and that as long as different household members' cuddle contacts weren't at the house at the same time, and maintained distancing from any household members who they aren't the cuddle contact of, then it was OK.

But even what you are describing is much more permissive than here, where there are rigid criteria for being eligible for a bubble at all.

OP posts:
ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 01:29

@GoneCrazy

OP I was just about to post about the immense amount of anxiety this has caused me. I miss my mum who is a cancer survivor terribly. She works with the public day in day out in essential retail. Yet I can’t visit her. She’s 110 miles away so I would struggle to say it’s a childcare bubble.

My children have not seen their Grandmother since last year.

In the meantime I can send them into a classroom of 30 other kids and we can mix with 60 other families as there are 30 kids per class. Ridiculous. We follow the rules and my DH is not comfortable with us travelling to see family

Yes that must be heartbreaking and it seems so unfair and heavy-handed when everyone is still expected to go to work and school as you say. And this is the sort of thing that only needs a tiny amount of easing to sort out. We don't need to go all the way back to the rule of 6 for this, just the German 'full lockdown' rule of one household plus one adult from another household, or the Dutch "one adult visitor per day", or even the Belgian cuddle contacts, would make such a difference to people in this way.

We aren't trying to have house parties or even dinner parties! We just want to legally be able to see our very nearest and dearest in very small numbers.

OP posts:
ConeHat · 05/03/2021 01:35

My mum.lives alone. She is elderly, hospitalized before Christmas due to a fall and her, me and dh have all been vaccinated. We can bubble up because she is a lone household.

However mum thinks its rule breaking and hesitant if I offer to visit.

My sis hasn't seen anyone since Christmas, feels desperately unhappy and this week, for the first time went for a walk with her friend. She is too scared to drive over to me for a walk.

I'm just numb to how I feel about not seeing my family or friends and the uncertainty that we will be able to meet up outside soon. I'm so used to it now I'm numb to it.

I dont want to break rules and I do follow them. But its fatigueing to maintain tain a high level of any emotion related to covid. I find I struggle to care more each day apart from my ever shrinking world. It's not about being blindly compliant. I was a good girl following the rules and I still caught covid not seeing anyone. It's just that covid mental fatigue means I give less shots each day about "get back to normal". Yes things will be better but normal has gone. This is normal now. Come July there will be another normal but if its stable or involves human interactions, I cant invest hope in. It's a moving target. One day we will have however want in our homes. Until that happens it's not on my radar.

I keep thinking my mum.will die of old age before i see her again. What can i do? That's more ok than breaking the rules all round. Right?

ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 01:58

@LoveYourUsername

In Oz they closed the borders for 8 months. No one could travel anywhere. In Ireland there is a 5k limit on moving outside your home.

Your post is a waste of time.

The roadmap is laid out.

If you are trying to incite people to break the rules, shame on you @ByTheHarbour

I'm not trying to incite people to break the rules, I'm just wishing that nationally we would have a bit more of an intense debate about the rules and their proportionality.

When the rules are probably the greatest interference with personal liberty and family life in our peacetime history, and are markedly more draconian and long lasting than in many other comparable countries, I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to wish for. And especially when they have been enacted largely by a small inner circle of ministers with little of the usual scrutiny or parliamentary process.

OP posts:
CornishPastyDownUnder · 05/03/2021 02:04

lived through months of this in melbourne last yrHmm

FakingMemories · 05/03/2021 03:31

And yet one of the highest death rates per million in the world. So it was a great success, wasn’t it?

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 05/03/2021 08:25

I found conehat's post really interesting:

"But its fatigueing to maintain tain a high level of any emotion related to covid. I find I struggle to care more each day apart from my ever shrinking world. It's not about being blindly compliant."

Yes. On another thread there was a discussion about this - that to maintain some kind of emotional equilibrium in a situation over which you have little control, people adapt mentally to the 'new normal'.

Overall the restrictions seem to be popular, judging by opinion polls. To the pp who said government 'created' the fear, I am not sure. In first half of March 2020 they were trying to calm it. It was public opinion and media including social media calling for stronger measures at that point. Obviously since then things have developed but I don't think it was government messaging that created the original levels of fear.

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 08:45

@ByTheHarbour the UK is a pretty defiant country when it comes to rules. Covid hit us badly, whether that’s down a poor initial response by the UK, that we are a densely populated, multinational island nation, whether we had poor border control, an ageing population. We also had a health system that couldn’t cope. This is why we needed harsh measures, and I’m supporting them fully so - hopefully - it doesn’t happen again. I do think the vaccine drive is going well, we are ahead of other countries there. My concern is now that we are beginning to control the virus, it will mutate to become resistant to the vaccine. So we need to be careful. Clearly social contact spread others, and I don’t want others to be encouraged to think they know better/that it’s a silly rule - because that then encourages them to break it. We’ve just GOT to sit tight for a bit longer. The professors/scientists are the best informed here - we go with what they say.

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 08:47

Urgh, hope that makes sense! Lots of typos!!

BugsAndBeesAndBirdsAndButterfl · 05/03/2021 08:47

@CornishPastyDownUnder I pointed this out on the first page ... apparently that didn't "count" as was a limited period of time. Hmmm.

rossclare · 05/03/2021 08:59

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@rossclare

In which way do you disbelieve the death rate?[/quote]
In that people are having CV19 as the cause of death when they have recently tested negative or haven't tested at all - or they are in the last stages of a terminal disease and were tragically going to pass away anyway.
I'm not demeaning or belittling their death in any way (my dear Dad died of a brain tumour), but if - in my example Dad had caught CV19 right at the end from one of his carers and that would have been put on his death cert, i would have been devastasted. It would be a lie.

Wakeupin2022 · 05/03/2021 09:03

One condition we are putting on carers coming back into parents house, is that they have been vaccinated.

I don't care whether they have a contract with their employer or not. But they won't be getting across the threshold is they are a risk - and not being vaccinated is a risk.

Wakeupin2022 · 05/03/2021 09:04

Oops wrong thread!

ExcusesAndAccusations · 05/03/2021 09:17

Rossclare the Covid death figures come in in three ways.

One is the basic “died within 28 days of a positive test” figure, which may over count by including some people who randomly died of other causes, especially if they were in hospital at the time, but will undercount where people have not been tested (especially early in the first wave) or if they die after 28 days due to organ damage.

The second is by counting the number of people whose doctors have stated on the death certificate that in their professional opinion Covid 19 was a contributing cause of their death.

The third is by looking at the excess number of deaths over and above the average deaths at this time of year.

All of these methods will have inaccuracies of different types, but they all give pretty close results and they all show a pattern over the last year which is completely compatible with the official medical narrative. If you look at the shape of the excess deaths figures, using the standard ONS weekly reports then I defy you to claim that over enthusiastic doctors slapping a Covid label on unrelated death certificates has had any significant impact on the data.

ExcusesAndAccusations · 05/03/2021 09:26

Also if someone with a terminal illness contracts Covid and dies from it slightly before their time then that is quite rightly counted as a Covid death. Yes they were going to die anyway but so are we all. If a fire burns down a hospice and kills all the end stage patients then those are still deaths from fire. Again the excess deaths figures shows you that those cases are not what is driving the total figures.