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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
AtSwimTwoBerts · 04/03/2021 10:43

As I understand it the Irish household rules are more or less identical to ours, even with the same support bubbles etc, so I'm guessing their rules have been influenced by ours to some extent

NO, they aren't and NO, they haven't. As if anyone would copy the UK, ffs!

poppycat10 · 04/03/2021 10:46

@AtSwimTwoBerts

As I understand it the Irish household rules are more or less identical to ours, even with the same support bubbles etc, so I'm guessing their rules have been influenced by ours to some extent

NO, they aren't and NO, they haven't. As if anyone would copy the UK, ffs!

Trust people to jump on this and not the OP's main point that most countries don't have household mixing rules.

However, I think they mostly do.

StepOutOfLine · 04/03/2021 10:47

Italy's rules are more based on the town you're in. The rule in the OP was over the Christmas period and relevant to going to visit people in other towns.

The UK rule has always seemed insane to me. Am I more likely to give/catch Covid having dinner with 5 relatives in one of our houses, or in a crowded place where nobody is made to wear a mask.

Tough one. Hmm

Delatron · 04/03/2021 10:48

I agree OP.

It’s because household mixing makes no money for the government. So this week my cleaner has been, broadband guy was in my house all day. Yet I can’t have my vaccinated parents over and haven’t seen them since summer.

France have got it right in my opinion. And knowing the French if they had been told a year down the line families weren’t allowed to mix, grandparents couldn’t see grandchildren they wouldn’t have stood for it.

It should be advice here and not law. Especially now many grandparents are vaccinated. Yet it’s still another two months until we can mix indoors. But hey we can all sit on a bench with someone from next week.

onlychildandhamster · 04/03/2021 10:51

Singapore banned household mixing but lockdown was only for a month in the last year. they can have up to 8 visitors a day. for my family reunion dinner during chinese new year, they did it over several days as my extended family has over 50 members. Also with a lot of singaporean families, they live in an extended family structure anyway though it is much less common than when I was a child.

My parents in singapore are shocked that lockdown has lasted so long. I don't disagree with restricting for household mixing but realistically it has gone on for too long. I think they should have aimed for short, strict and effective lockdowns rather than the extended repeated lockdowns. Most people would have been able to stomach the idea of not seeing family and friends for a month.

AtSwimTwoBerts · 04/03/2021 10:56

Trust people to jump on this and not the OP's main point that most countries don't have household mixing rules

a) its an important point to note
b) why would I focus on OP's main point, when it was entirely wrong and rather stupid?

MargaretThursday · 04/03/2021 11:02

@avenueq

It's a fundamental misunderstanding that other countries had it better in winter solely through being more careful. The reason things took off the way they did in the UK was the B117 variant. This is only NOW becoming dominant in eg Germany which is why there they are in fear of another wave.
We already had a pretty bad death rate from the first wave.
feelingverylazytoday · 04/03/2021 11:16

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@avenueq,

It is only partially the new variant. South Africa had a highly infectious variant as the dominant strain and their cases came down faster than ours, despite not vaccinating.

There are a lot of people who wilfully ignore the fact that, as a nation, people went wild in December. BJ did not help with his mixed messaging and nor did the new strain BUT behaviour was also a massive factor.[/quote]
People went wild in December? Really?
It was extremely quiet in my town. People did do a bit of extra shopping but it was well controlled. Hospitality was shut and eveyone I know stayed indoors in their own households. Some people did socially distanced present swaps outside, as we did.

avenueq · 04/03/2021 11:21

I have no idea where those people are who went wild in December
What is that claim based on?

FatRascalsAndJam · 04/03/2021 11:21

I agree OP. I haven’t read the full thread but in the first page people seem caught up in the semantics of which countries have been in lockdown for what period of time and the ethics of following the rules in place.

I can’t imagine how anyone doesn’t wake up each day deeply perturbed by the fact that in the UK - despite similar demographics to other European countries - we’ve been in a never ending horror show of death, disruption to our lives and economic calamity that other countries just haven’t faced to the same extent.

We shouldn’t be saying we won’t follow the rules in place, but be questioning how we got into such an incomparably bad situation.

And I don’t buy the population density red herring - we live in a sparsely populated area with a small city that was very badly affected.

We should be using questions such as the OP posted as a springboard to asking what went wrong here, rather than just blindly accepting the curtailment of our lives.

And I want to make very clear that in saying this I am not saying I - or others - should not follow lockdown rules. They’re clearly necessary given the woeful position we’re in. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t question why we’re in this position - and what could have prevented it escalating so.

feelingverylazytoday · 04/03/2021 11:22

@ThatDamnKrampus

Probably because we are the only ones who cant follow simple rules 🤷🏼‍♀️
Don't be ridiculous, rules have been broken in nearly every country.
feelingverylazytoday · 04/03/2021 11:25

@avenueq

I have no idea where those people are who went wild in December What is that claim based on?
It's probably regional, to be fair. My part of the country came out of lockdown straight in to tier 3/4.
Flyonawalk · 04/03/2021 11:28

@ByTheHarbour I fully agree with you. Restrictions in the U.K. represent a huge intrusion by the state into our private lives, and a very dangerous precedent. I think in future we will regret being so compliant about this.

Delatron · 04/03/2021 11:31

Most spread was hospitals and care homes. We continually failed to address this.

I agree there was a need for no household mixing over Christmas due to the new strain (though he actually allowed this in many areas). We were in Tier 4 so couldn’t but I would have made a personal risk assessment with school age children and not mixed anyway.

However, now with rates very low and a vaccination programme that is going quicker than we planned we should be allowed to see vaccinated family.

I thought we were going to be driven by data not dates? So still mid May until many of us can see family.

And yes we should question these laws and apply critical thinking.

miimblemomble · 04/03/2021 11:37

France has a written Constitution. The constitution prevents the government from interfering in the right to a private family life. At the start of the first lockdown, the government did try to ban family mixing at home but the constitutional court ruled that this was not legal. As such, this has not been an option for the French government. They cannot prevent people mixing at home (family or not). Even at the height of the pandemic, it was not illegal to throw a party for 100 people in your chateau. it was however illegal to be outside except for very specific purposes - and travelling to a party was not one of them.

The UK could have a constitution if it wanted one. It doesn't, so everything is on the table when it comes to making up rules on the spot.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/03/2021 11:55

However, now with rates very low and a vaccination programme that is going quicker than we planned we should be allowed to see vaccinated family.

The government (at least here in Scotland) have chosen to prioritise re-opening schools. Vaccinations are going well so schools are also re-opening more quickly.

Do you want to slow down the re-opening of schools so that we can start seeing vaccinated family right now? Or have you run the data and worked out that now we can safely do both?

onlychildandhamster · 04/03/2021 11:59

@Delatron www.standard.co.uk/news/health/decline-coronavirus-infection-rate-slowing-rise-in-london-figures-show-b922049.html

Rates in london are increasing. And often london is several weeks ahead of the rest of the country in terms of infections. in my postcode, we are now having to get tested due to someone contracting the south african variant.

RedcurrantPuff · 04/03/2021 12:01

It’s an outrageous infringement of civil liberties and one that I will not be paying any more heed to within the next few weeks.

Heyahun · 04/03/2021 12:03

As if Ireland would be doing anything to copy the U.K. 😂

Ireland lockdown rules came in before the U.K. last year and the rules are actually quite different!!

Quit4me · 04/03/2021 12:11

But how can rates be increasing in lockdown?
And if rates are increasing, what more can we do to stop them? Should we stop them? Could we even stop them without vital services shutting down?

AtSwimTwoBerts · 04/03/2021 12:13

But how can rates be increasing in lockdown?And if rates are increasing, what more can we do to stop them

Because the governement has crowed so much about how great they are with the vaccines and how everything will be open soon, that people have got cocky and decided they don't need to follow the rules anymore. People are doing what they want.
What do you think will happen?

AtSwimTwoBerts · 04/03/2021 12:13

It’s an outrageous infringement of civil liberties and one that I will not be paying any more heed to within the next few weeks

See. tits like this! Thinking they are too good for lockdown measures, too special. "I'll do what I want".

avenueq · 04/03/2021 12:14

@Quit4me the answer you'll get is people are to blame, not following the rules.
Ignoring social deprivation, working conditions, housing issues...

Donotfeedthebears · 04/03/2021 12:17

I really do not care any more. I’m staying at home because I’m pregnant and tired and can’t be arsed to go out. I do enjoy the occasional wander around M&S Foodhall, Boots and Starbucks coffee as nowhere else is open.

But I’ll be seeing my parents and forming a bubble with them when the baby is born.

Had enough of it all now.

Youhavetoquitwhileyoureahead · 04/03/2021 12:20

"@Quit4me* the answer you'll get is people are to blame, not following the rules.
Ignoring social deprivation, working conditions, housing issues..."*

What would be really interesting to know is how UK compares to other countries on infection control in hospitals. Are the levels of corona infection we have in hospitals the norm and 'inevitable' , or is it possible to do better - and if so how?