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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
Sammy011970 · 05/03/2021 17:38

@garlictwist 100% agree with you. The most relevant comment on here 👏
Why do people in the UK constantly compare to other countries and social media. The fact is this - if we release people to soon the infection rates will rapidly
Increase .. the vaccine is here. Hooray.
I work in healthcare. It’s really not that difficult to understand pandemics. Unless you’re selfish and what to get back to the shops ! I did actually read a couple of threads on the desire to shop ... really, amongst people who carry a deadly infection ??? Stay well everyone snd be grateful
for our lives and health x

StepOutOfLine · 05/03/2021 17:39

@PoochiePlush

The UK are hopefully coming out of lockdown for good.

You might say other countries have been less strict... but Italy and France are about to go into another lockdown and possibly closing schools

So really - everything is easy with hindsight and no-one is out of the woods yet.

Everyone country is doing the best they can

Italy isn't going into another lockdown.

There will be localised lockdowns, and localised school closures for eventual outbreaks. Regional governors, as they have since the autumn, will have the power to order these. Town mayors have the power to close primary schools but not senior schools.

ZPaula · 05/03/2021 17:40

Have a look at the Office for National Statistics (ONS) early death rates per year in the U.K since 1990 up until the end of December. Draw your own conclusions:
www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsintheukfrom1990to2020

FTMF30 · 05/03/2021 17:42

@TheBitchOfTheVicar

I’d say the right to life is the most fundamental right.
Think you mean the right to exist. A life with restricted social interaction and merriment is no life at all.
thenovice · 05/03/2021 17:43

This is what we are trying to avoid when we don't mix.

roxanne119 · 05/03/2021 17:43

I just feel that schools go back and woo hoo I’m really pleased for you all . But and you can shoot me on this but I don’t have school aged kids if it all kicks up again we will lock down again and we ( my family and I currently spread around the country ) won’t get to see each other again for bloody ages ! I don’t even blame anyone for it just sick of being inside ☹️

FTMF30 · 05/03/2021 17:44

@clarepetal

Agreed with you, which is why I've ignored it. I might get flamed here, but I'm not holding parties, I only go out to get my shopping at the moment (and that is click and collect). I take my son to visit my mum and brother once a week, for his sanity as well as mine as he hasn't interacted with other children since before Xmas. To not see them is inhumane, I'm not being told what to do by a bunch of nepotistic arrogant unorganised bunch of arseholes government.
🙌
marioncr · 05/03/2021 17:46

People that live on their own can have support bubbles they are aloud to see each other and people with children can also have bubbles Boris did the support bubbles for people on their own because of their mental health it is tough being in your own and not have family members living with you I’m having to sheild so I can only go out for essential things but I can see people in my support bubble which is only two people but then I’ve not seen them for a long time but with everything meant to be openi g by June I’m not holding my breath. What some of your have said about the rules there are those that arnt listening and doing what they want having partys etc that’s being selfish for those of us who are abiding by the rules because the virus won’t go away if people arnt abiding by the rules.

SWS17 · 05/03/2021 17:47

Unreasonable of you to make the off hand assumption that Irish rules were influenced by UK rules. An undercurrent of racism persists that is at odds with Ireland’s superior level of educational attainment when compared with the UK.

Dinkydody · 05/03/2021 17:50

@DianaT1969

Your argument would make sense if other countries didn't have a problem with Covid. But they do. You could equally write a post saying "despite no household mixing allowed, we had over 1,000 deaths per day in January. How many if we had all mixed more?" When you consider that transfer outside is low to negligible, you have to wonder where all the contact is happening. Spread within hospitals is a big one. Care homes and schools. Certain workplaces. I'm not sure that can explain 20,000 new cases we were seeing a day in the autumn and January. I want this over. Back to near normal. I think cases and deaths would be higher if we were mixing in households more. Delaying our return to normal.
This
marioncr · 05/03/2021 17:51

Yes I agree Roxanne I think it will all flare up again when the kids go back to school and then when other things get opened up but the thing that annoys me is people moan about the lockdown etc then when things are opened up snd everything rises more cases etc then they moan again as they say he’s not doing enough what do they want seriously? He’s only trying to protect the country I get online shopping most of the time there are times when I have to go out but that’s only for essential things othrree we use I’m indoors it does get pretty lonely.

Labobo · 05/03/2021 17:52

@110APiccadilly

I think it's very interesting that posters seem to be concentrating on the fact that there's one other country where this is also true, and not engaging with the OP's main point that this level of restrictions is highly unusual.

I share OP's concerns, I think it's terrifying that people just accept the government has the right to ban you from having any visitors. I live in Wales and there's not been a single moment in the last year when I can have whoever I like in my own home - the most I've been allowed is people from my own household bubble last summer.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I agree. And we have one of the poorest records of virus control, what with our severely underfunded magnificent NHS and draconian isolation measures meant only for serfs not ministers.
Mary54 · 05/03/2021 17:57

I assume you are aware that the German ruling is outside and socially distanced?

ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 17:59

@GlomOfNit

I think I'm right in saying that in Portugal, the lockdown is even stricter than here, AND enforced. You certainly can't mix households and at weekends aren't even allowed out of your municipality (quite a small area, like a parish here) for shopping, etc. It's meant to cut down on illegal family meet-ups. You DO get stopped and questioned when out in your car, and you WILL get moved on during your daily exercise if a passing cop doesn't think you're moving fast enough.

(Incidentally, Portuguese cases and deaths have fallen very steeply since this was put in place and they've gone from the world no.1 for deaths and cases per 10,000 to a case rate significantly below the UK now...)

I'm not happy at the moment - who is? But I'm an adult and the alternative looks like 10s of 1000s of extra deaths on top of the ones we've already recorded.

I believe I'm right in saying that Portugal has been like France, in that any de facto household mixing ban has been the result of general restrictions on movement and being out of your home, rather than specific restrictions about who you can mix with in your home.

So yes they've had a few periods under those sort of really strict total lockdown measures, but obviously measures of that strictness can't last for too long and then when they end you can mix again.

What they haven't had, as far as I know, is the sort of situation that we've had where the government opens everything up, tells you to go out and spend your money etc, but keeps specific laws in place banning mixing in homes.

OP posts:
Leedsfan247 · 05/03/2021 18:00

Suggest you move abroad

TheLeapHome · 05/03/2021 18:14

I assume you must live in Leicester ...why do you think it was necessary to maintain the ban on household mixing there and in a few other cities, but not in the rest of England?

I live in the South East, I do not feel that I have been banned from mixing with other households for nearly a year, yet I have stuck to all the rules. I feel we have had 3 periods in the last year when I have been required to avoid mixing with other households. The rest of the time I have been able to see friends and family and socialise without breaking any rules.

Perhaps some areas in England are better at sticking to the rules and therefore rates drop sufficiently low that the more "draconian" rules were able to be relaxed.

I wonder though, what you expect would ahve happened had we not been banned from mixing households? Would you rather we had papers that we showed that allowed us out? Or that the virus was just allowed free reign?

whatintheheck · 05/03/2021 18:16

OP you have done such a lot of work here - the only missing bit would be to note that in all the EU countries where household mixing is not banned, cases are starting to rise exponentially again. I would rather push on through now and get back to normal in June.

ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 18:17

@SWS17

Unreasonable of you to make the off hand assumption that Irish rules were influenced by UK rules. An undercurrent of racism persists that is at odds with Ireland’s superior level of educational attainment when compared with the UK.
If it came across like that then I'm genuinely sorry. That wasn't what I meant at all. It was just an observation that the Irish rules on mixing are now extremely similar, and specifically on the legislated support bubble system they have introduced a system with the same name as the British one and almost identical in every detail. I also suspected that the practicalities of cross border links with the North could have prompted some coordination of measures.

I'm certainly aware that at other times in the pandemic the Irish measures have been quite different to the British ones, for example in the spring they were earlier to impose them and I think also earlier to ease some of them than we were.

OP posts:
scubadive · 05/03/2021 18:17

I blame the press, they have only reported one side of this story the whole way through. They have used scare tactics to scare people into staying at home, constantly reporting death numbers and talking in solemn voices that if we don't follow the rules there will be more deaths.

They continually harassed the government constantly questioning if our lockdowns were soon enough, long enough, harsh enough.

The consequence of this is not only that we have the highest deaths in Europe but very likely the worst financial and health consequences in years to come.

The government and press and a lot of the general public all say but what if we hadn't done it, the deaths would be so much higher but where is the the evidence to support this?

The average death age from covid is now over 82 yrs against an average UK life expectancy of 81 yrs and so has this all been for nothing? What we should really be investigating is the link between obesity and the deaths in younger people and how we can get the general population a more healthy weight to protect against future illnesses, not killing the economy and locking up healthy individuals who rarely become hospitalised with covid.

scubadive · 05/03/2021 18:18

Also you tube Ivor Cummins he has posted some very interesting videos questioning the validity if the Govt approach.

Mistymountain · 05/03/2021 18:22

I totally agree with you. I would go so far as to say that the complete ban on family interaction is evil. I'm not objective here though, as the last time I saw my mother was 3rd March 2020, she died during the first lockdown.

Peachi82 · 05/03/2021 18:25

I agree with your starting post, OP.

And still I have friends from abroad with lesser restrictions that say that the UK people must not follow the rules as the cases are so high.

SWmadness · 05/03/2021 18:28

We’ve obeyed the rules with one exception. We spent a couple of days with another family over Xmas . Plans had been in place to join them for Xmas before the rules changed at the last minute. In the end we decided to go ahead as the family is in dire straits emotionally. Their 14 year old daughter has recently been diagnosed with anorexia and she tried to kill herself a few weeks before Xmas. They don’t leave her side for a minute. They are exhausted and have no family to turn to. We spent a couple of days looking after them, cooking for them, and playing games. It was fantastic and euphoric after such a long time isolated from other people. I would break the rules again for them in a heartbeat.

Saralyn · 05/03/2021 18:30

I agree with you. I have been quite shocked at the rules in the UK.

I live in Norway, and here the government has concluded that it is too big an infringement on human rights to limit the number of people gathering in a home to less than ten people by law.

In the last few months there has been a strong recommendation to limit number of visits, and people mostly follows the recommendations. At the moment in Oslo, since Monday, the recommendation is no visitors in the home (except for those living alone which are allowed to visit one or two friends). We had the same recommendation for about two weeks earlier in 2021, and the government was very clear that this was an extreme measure, and it was the first restriction to be lifted. Right now all non-essential shops, cafes, restaurants are closed etc. I am sure the government will not consider allowing these to open until the recommendation to not have visitors in the home is lifted.

As a country, we are pretty compliant with following recommendations (even when they are not enforceable by law), but if we had not been allowed any visitors for months I think that would have shifted.

GrandadBob · 05/03/2021 18:30

Most of mainland Europe infection rates have either stalled or are increasing. Areas in the uk who seem to know better are increasing or stalled. The 18 to 40 club who know who they are need to learn by the mistakes over the last twelve months and just think about the whole of the uk and not yourselves. We are on the right course so don’t screw this up with your selfish theories. Let’s do it together all at the same pace.