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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
Notnownotneverever · 05/03/2021 18:31

The problem is that our own actions and choices like breaking the rules affects others and potentially the life or death of another person not just ourselves. I sort of agree but then I don't want to be the person who passes it on via the chain to another person who cannot fight this virus and dies from it.
Not everyone's life is straightforward and can make a choice to shield. My DH is vulnerable but has to continue working in a supermarket due to a few complicated reasons. But I really appreciate people who do not break the indoor mixing rules and therefore help to stop the spread of the virus and reduce the risk to those working and volunteering in public facing roles.

mibbelucieachwell · 05/03/2021 18:32

I've only skim read the responses to your OP so apologies if I'm repeating points made by ops.

I completely agree with you despite stopping my self employment before I had to, wearing masks before they were compulsory and withdrawing from social situations before it was compulsory because I didn't trust the government to keep us safe. Now they're desperate to be seen to be doing something to keep the number of deaths down, because the high number of deaths makes the government look bad. Whereas the effects of endless restrictions is less quantifiable.

It's scary how people now seem to identify as rule followers staying at home, being responsible and protecting the NHS. Profile pics with masks, posting the restrictions online etc. Where are the members of the public demanding to know why the government can't get its act together to keep the virus out of healthcare settings and workplaces? Why it's blaming the public for the results of government incompetence? Why it still isn't planning to permanently increase hospital capacity?

It's not as if the UK governments consulted about what should be priorities. In the long run it will be young people who pay the brunt of the bill for the government's incompetence. But that doesn't matter because the conservative voting demographic is older.

I'm in an area of Scotland which has had lengthier restrictions than some family members' area. My council area is tiny. Strictly speaking I shouldn't be going for a walk with my DC who lives 5 miles away in another council. No sympathy for this from the family members who were living under fewer restrictions.

Friends phone and launch into rants about how annoying it is when people make tiny infringements of the rules. Where is the compassion for people who have lost jobs and or now live in horrifically stressful circumstances?

Yes OP, I agree it's scary.

grenadines · 05/03/2021 18:34

@TheLeapHome Do your relatives live in your county in the south east or outside it? In the case of the latter you were probably only able to stay with them between mid July and the end of October which is not most of the year and if you had kids in school it might not have been practical to visit during most of September/October. You would not have been able to see any of your relatives on Christmas day even if they lived in your area. If any of your relatives lived in the north west the time period would have been shorter. I'm quite sure there are people in Leicester who have followed the rules throughout and not been able to have relatives to stay at all.

mussymummy · 05/03/2021 18:36

I am not happy with the restrictions but would rather that than everyone I love die.
You sound the type that is not paying attention to the rules anyway so why post?

tizzero · 05/03/2021 18:37

@aprilanne

Well if u think everyone abides by this rule then you are sorely mistaken .they can say what they like lots of households mix. Being with family is more important and some including me are willing to take the risk .
This is EXACTLY the selfish attitude that has us locked down under these Draconian measures.

This country has a massive superiority complex and its packed full of selfish people like this one.

ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 18:38

@Mary54

I assume you are aware that the German ruling is outside and socially distanced?
I don't think that's the case. That certainly isn't what I've heard and doesn't seem to be what it says here www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/coronavirus/bund-laender-beschluss-1872126

Do you have a source?

OP posts:
HermioneWeasley · 05/03/2021 18:39

YANBU, I can’t believe people have accepted the government making laws about who you can have in your house! It’s totalitarian bullshit

winniestone37 · 05/03/2021 18:41

Not really sure where I sit on this, I mean is the fact that other countries have done it differently isn’t an indication they have done it right. Even if you look at deaths your not looking at the how the virus was spread. However I understand your frustration. Our estate agent said he finds it annoying that he can’t see his family but a family of 5 can show up and he has to show them round a house, an hour for the bigs ones. It’s a fair point I thought.

mibbelucieachwell · 05/03/2021 18:43

It's so polarised. 'Are you happy for people to die?' 'Move abroad if you don't like it'.

The truth is, it's now apparently acceptable to die from anything as long as it's not covid. Even though the average age of people who have sadly died from covid is higher than the average life expectancy in Britain.

We need some perspective now. Where are the projections of cost benefit for restrictions? We hear about covid modelling and hear from social scientists who are described as scientists. Why not analysis of the effects of massive restrictions?

Lamaitresse · 05/03/2021 18:43

I live in Belgium and we are only allowed one other person to enter our house, and up to four people in the garden, only one of whom is allowed to use the loo (that person being the one mentioned person who can enter the house).
We’ve had strict semi-lockdown rules since October, with restaurants, cinema, hairdressers etc closed, and they were not loosened over Christmas/New Year. We have therefore not had the huge rise in cases that the UK has had.
The UK government ballsed up, as they have done most of the way along. You are now reaping the repercussions I’m afraid.

Wobblywombat · 05/03/2021 18:47

I agree with the poster.

It is worth noting that some if the countries which have addressed covid most successfully (e.g., Korea) have had very short but effective lockdowns, but been successful mainly because people have good personal hygiene (like handwashing) and the habit of wearing masks in crowded spaces already.

myblackboots · 05/03/2021 18:47

New Zealand was far stricter than us from day 1 with very little notice given. A friend there was working away on business and had to go straight into a hotel, couldn’t return home to family for weeks. No taking shopping/handbags into supermarkets, had to wheel trolley to car and pack into bags there. Yes lots of countries are doing things differently to us but only time will tell which had the most effective approach. In the meantime, I prefer to follow the advice of British scientists who have proved themselves to be among the best in the world. France and Germany have made a mess of things - one minute slating the Astra Z vaccine as unfit for purpose and then changing their minds - so I wouldn’t take any notice of what’s going on there. If our scientists advise against indoor mixing I’m not going to argue, I don’t want to see deaths rising again

Snowrabbit · 05/03/2021 18:55

Agree with you OP. Living in Scotland and not been allowed anyone in my house since September! It's absolutely outrageous and a complete overreach of the state. You will get the unthinking average person being quite unquestioning of this and outraged that YOU dare question it. The misery of this is unrelenting and it's become normal. Where does it end? People need to wake up and realise Covid isn't the only problem in life. We need a far better balance but supporting restrictions is almost fashionable now. Then you will people saying thing like "try asking the family of a Covid victim" which to me is utter tosh - they have no more understanding than the rest of us and dying of Covid is no different to any other disease. It doesn't make a special category of bereaved. Of course all deaths are sad but Covid deaths are no more sad. People have lost all perspective and we need return basic freedoms now.

rawalpindithelabrador · 05/03/2021 19:01

@Snowrabbit

Agree with you OP. Living in Scotland and not been allowed anyone in my house since September! It's absolutely outrageous and a complete overreach of the state. You will get the unthinking average person being quite unquestioning of this and outraged that YOU dare question it. The misery of this is unrelenting and it's become normal. Where does it end? People need to wake up and realise Covid isn't the only problem in life. We need a far better balance but supporting restrictions is almost fashionable now. Then you will people saying thing like "try asking the family of a Covid victim" which to me is utter tosh - they have no more understanding than the rest of us and dying of Covid is no different to any other disease. It doesn't make a special category of bereaved. Of course all deaths are sad but Covid deaths are no more sad. People have lost all perspective and we need return basic freedoms now.
I 100% agree and I lost my father to Covid. Totally sick of all these draconian restrictions now.
Sallybates · 05/03/2021 19:08

I think you’re making a valid point. We need to balance liberty, family life and safety. Folk should be trusted to make their own decisions . If you want to shield, do so. If you want to see your grandchildren then risk assessment it in a way that reflects your circumstances. I’d leap at the chance!

Dopeyduck · 05/03/2021 19:08

I actually agree. And I also think we’d have been better of allowing close contact with a limited amount of people than a rule of 6 at any one time.
You could meet 5 different households a day in a pub in the summer but I couldn’t hug my mum and she couldn’t hold my new baby.

ClaudiasWinkleMan · 05/03/2021 19:18

@LegoPirateMonkey completely what you said. Australia and New Zealand were able to relax restrictions because they went further with boarder controls. They went for elimination we went for herd immunity. Had we followed the hard and fast approach like other countries we too would be out of restrictions but as per this government they try to put a plaster over a haemorrhage. We have pretty much zero safety measures in place in schools but rest of Europe do. Their numbers weren’t as bad and their healthcare systems weren’t as over run. Not have they had as high death rates as us. This is why we are where we are because ever time the scientific advice is ignored we end up in bigger shit and stronger measures. We still don’t have a proper track and trace system even though ours is the most expensive one.

aramo · 05/03/2021 19:22

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".
👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

aramo · 05/03/2021 19:24

@HermioneWeasley

YANBU, I can’t believe people have accepted the government making laws about who you can have in your house! It’s totalitarian bullshit
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 19:26

@TheLeapHome

I assume you must live in Leicester ...why do you think it was necessary to maintain the ban on household mixing there and in a few other cities, but not in the rest of England? I live in the South East, I do not feel that I have been banned from mixing with other households for nearly a year, yet I have stuck to all the rules. I feel we have had 3 periods in the last year when I have been required to avoid mixing with other households. The rest of the time I have been able to see friends and family and socialise without breaking any rules.

Perhaps some areas in England are better at sticking to the rules and therefore rates drop sufficiently low that the more "draconian" rules were able to be relaxed.

I wonder though, what you expect would ahve happened had we not been banned from mixing households? Would you rather we had papers that we showed that allowed us out? Or that the virus was just allowed free reign?

Even in the South East though, you've only been allowed to mix indoors for about 4 of the last 12 months? I appreciate that indoor mixing isn't that the same size issue for everyone and it does depend on circumstances. If you live locally to all main friends and family then perhaps only seeing them outside for a while is quite OK. But for people distant from family who can only see them by staying over it is a much bigger problem. And non-cohabiting couples - for them it's a really big problem.

As for what would have happened without a household mixing ban, I think that depends on what other restrictions would have been in place instead. For example in the tier system they could (should!) have shut pubs, had stricter workplace / wfh rules, and no doubt various other things, before even thinking about going to zero mixing in homes. Our priorities have been all wrong. There are huge numbers of countries that have allowed household mixing during lockdowns, but I'm not aware of any apart from us who have had pubs open during a household mixing ban, like we did during the tiers.

OP posts:
CommonMinnow · 05/03/2021 19:26

[quote ZPaula]Have a look at the Office for National Statistics (ONS) early death rates per year in the U.K since 1990 up until the end of December. Draw your own conclusions:
www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsintheukfrom1990to2020[/quote]
Thank you.

I urge everyone to follow this link have a big think about what the stats are really telling us.

Cardiffwales · 05/03/2021 19:29

Completely agree. Couldn’t put it better!

sliceoflife · 05/03/2021 19:30

Just deal with it. Nobody likes it, it is dragging on now, but it won’t be for ever.

I really wish the rules were more strictly enforced in England.
No travel outside your local area. Only one person from a household to shop in a supermarket.

Local seaside towns were packed last weekend. I did an essential supermarket shop today and it was full of families treating it like a pleasure trip.

The roads are busy even though people are supposed to be working from home if they can. Gyms and non essential shops are closed. Where are all these people going?

If lockdown was enforced strictly in January the same as last March I’m sure the infection and death rates would have come down a lot faster.

Why are people so selfish they think the rules don’t apply to them and their circumstances are so special they can put others at risk?

Celestine70 · 05/03/2021 19:44

You are right.

anon666 · 05/03/2021 19:46

We've already got almost the worst track record in the world on covid, on both infections and numbers of deaths. Maybe that explains why our rules are so draconian?