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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
wanderings · 05/03/2021 19:51

but it won’t be for ever.
Really? Really really really? Just like it was going to be "normalish by Christmas", followed by Boris's trademark U-turn? At what point do we decide that the lies and gaslighting and "not long now," "not long now", "not long now", "not long now" becomes unacceptable? How do we know that Saint Boris won't U-turn on 20th June with "actually, I am going for zero Covid"?

Siitat · 05/03/2021 19:54

Could it be because we have the highest dear rate in Europe!

GrandadBob · 05/03/2021 19:57

Judging by some of the totally expected, selfish and arrogant comments I think we can predict the next lock down.

tizzero · 05/03/2021 19:58

@GrandadBob

Judging by some of the totally expected, selfish and arrogant comments I think we can predict the next lock down.
This
rawalpindithelabrador · 05/03/2021 20:07

@GrandadBob

Judging by some of the totally expected, selfish and arrogant comments I think we can predict the next lock down.
That fewer and fewer will comply with because 'selfish' is rolling off them like water off a duck's back.
CommonMinnow · 05/03/2021 20:08

[quote ZPaula]Have a look at the Office for National Statistics (ONS) early death rates per year in the U.K since 1990 up until the end of December. Draw your own conclusions:
www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsintheukfrom1990to2020[/quote]
Also (again) this.

triceratopsmama · 05/03/2021 20:11

@ByTheHarbour

Yes I did mention Ireland in my post. They are the only other one that I know of. As I understand it the Irish household rules are more or less identical to ours, even with the same support bubbles etc, so I'm guessing their rules have been influenced by ours to some extent. Have the cross border links with the North played a role in that do you think?
Your op was well written but I stopped reading after this. How arrogant of you.Confused
annieannietomjoe · 05/03/2021 20:15

I think it's a case of once bitten twice shy for the government and also our health service. Basically the government really really messed up at Xmas so don't want to repeat that and also the NHS crumbles every winter pre covid as it is not capable for the amount of service users so with pandemic of course it is on its knees.

I only know about France out of the UK well as DH is French but there doesn't seem to be the level of anxiety about getting it there compare to here which is prob down to the media (and cultural reasons).

Interesting post though.

Snowrabbit · 05/03/2021 20:27

@anon666 and @Siitat actually we don't! Proportionate to population size, Spain do - but no one is shouting from the rooftops that the UK isn't the highest now it doesn't suit the lockdown agenda. These are from the Financial Times - I can't find the page again (feel free to look but there's loads of data!) Or if you can't find them, check how many deaths in Spain and divide by their population and do the same for UK. Spain is worse. Do you think all countries are (a) reporting like us - nope. Any death within 28 days of a Covid test is Covid and even if negative Covid test, can still be Covid? (b) have the capacity to report deaths at a national level - again nope

Only country with a household mixing ban
Only country with a household mixing ban
ellyeth · 05/03/2021 20:29

I agree with you OP.

Snowrabbit · 05/03/2021 20:34

Another story for those who think the UK is definitely the worst www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9279767/BEL-MOONEY-dad-died-chronic-illness-hes-officially-Covid-victim.html

Yes it's the Daily Mail but Bel Mooney is a respected author and journalist (former Times journalist too.) This is what happened to her father.

And the follow up story.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9305405/Grieving-relatives-demand-inquiry-loved-ones-wrongly-certified-virus-victims.html

CommonMinnow · 05/03/2021 20:45

[quote Snowrabbit]**@anon666* and @Siitat* actually we don't! Proportionate to population size, Spain do - but no one is shouting from the rooftops that the UK isn't the highest now it doesn't suit the lockdown agenda. These are from the Financial Times - I can't find the page again (feel free to look but there's loads of data!) Or if you can't find them, check how many deaths in Spain and divide by their population and do the same for UK. Spain is worse. Do you think all countries are (a) reporting like us - nope. Any death within 28 days of a Covid test is Covid and even if negative Covid test, can still be Covid? (b) have the capacity to report deaths at a national level - again nope[/quote]
Trouble is that people are too scared or tired to look beyond the spoon fed narrative. There is plenty of hard data available to readily challenge most of what we are being told officially.

Margerine78 · 05/03/2021 20:59

Norway have banned it, I work in music and spoke to an artist who can play a small gig but can't have people in her home. I'm sure the other countries' rules fluctuate too depending on infection rate.

I get it as people are more relaxed at home, locked in with no windows open (in this weather) breathing the same air. I hate it (live alone, going mad with boredom) but get the logic.

TheLeapHome · 05/03/2021 21:10

In response to your reply to me - yes I'd say half my friends and family live within an hour's drive of us, so indoors mixing hasn't been crucial. I can appreciate that those without friends and family within an hour or two would feel far more isolated. We've enjoyed doing new things to normal, but that's not to say I wouldn't want it differently. Obviously it would be great to have seen my parents for longer and my children were used to regular sleepovers with cousins which is so sad for them to miss out on. But if people keep seeing people inside, the chain will never be broken.

And yes, it is ridiculous that pubs could be open when people couldnt sit inside with family. But I think that sadly that is down the attitude in our country. Some people are sceptical, others are rebillious, others just don't prioritise protecting others....Pubs can be made to enforce social distancing - I don't believe that enough people in this country are concerned enough about keeping a social distance from friends and family, to stick to less strict rules. I think if people could be trusted to be be more 'community minded', the rules may have evolved differently.

Thoughout this pandemic I have felt immensely sad for single people, single parent families, those if flats and in care, however I don't think the rule against social mixing indoors could be any more lax without considerable worse consequencies to the hospitalisation & death rates, sadly. Ultimately every nation needs to set policy that consider the natural behaviour of it's own population, what everyone else does is largely irrelevant except as a source of learning. But like I say, that's not to say it wouldn't be great to have more freedom..Hopefully we'll manage the spread better this time when restrictions ease off...

BestArty · 05/03/2021 21:37

I have family and friends in France, Spain, Greece and Cyprus. What you list above is actually untrue. In Greece and Cyprus there is a curfew beyond 10pm, no mixing of households and you need to send a text message requesting permission to move from part A to part B and you get fined if you get caught somewhere outside a reasonable route linking your planned trip. You are only allowed 2 text messages every 24 hours. So if say you are going to the supermarket you are allowed to get there and back, that’s it. You can’t visit anyone else.

In France and Spain it varies by area depending on the infection rate some you can mix but in most you can’t and there is similar curfews as above.

You cannot compare one country to another. Some countries are doing atrociously eg the U.K. and USA and others are doing amazingly eg NZ so their restrictions won’t be the same.

Furthermore I am a doctor and I have to look after people who are dying because of Covid so I suggest you being told to not mix is the least of your worries. Imagine all the families who have lost multiple members. Several families where both parents are dead leaving behind small children. So if you want to whine about how unfortunate you are to not be mixing, go ahead but I suggest you don’t break the rules. Lots of people are dying due to others being selfish and breaking the rules.

onaroll · 05/03/2021 21:55

... & your point is ? ...

Shell4429 · 05/03/2021 21:55

So tired of people complaining about the restrictions.People are dying/have died and we have one of the worst death tolls in the world. I miss my family terribly but I know it’s not forever. Some people have lost loved ones to Covid, now that’s forever. As someone already pointed out the right to life is more important than liberty. I still think sending children back to school is reckless but it’s happening. I hope I am wrong but if I am not, this might not be the last lockdown. I don’t lament the loss of my freedom because it’s for the greater good, why don’t you get that?

rawalpindithelabrador · 05/03/2021 21:59

I'm so tired of people using other peoples' deaths as a cheap attempt to guilt people into living the way prisoners being punished do in some cases. I lost a parent to Covid. I've also lost a child some years ago. In neither case did the world stop spinning nor did I expect everything to grind to a halt and hole up as a result.

The government knows damn well compliance with any further lockdown isn't going to be as high because this is a ridiculous way to so-called live.

RedcurrantPuff · 05/03/2021 22:11

@Shell4429

So tired of people complaining about the restrictions.People are dying/have died and we have one of the worst death tolls in the world. I miss my family terribly but I know it’s not forever. Some people have lost loved ones to Covid, now that’s forever. As someone already pointed out the right to life is more important than liberty. I still think sending children back to school is reckless but it’s happening. I hope I am wrong but if I am not, this might not be the last lockdown. I don’t lament the loss of my freedom because it’s for the greater good, why don’t you get that?
My dad’s got cancer. Does his quality of life and getting to spend it with his grandchildren in what could be his last years not count, or is it only Covid?
RedcurrantPuff · 05/03/2021 22:14

@BestArty

I have family and friends in France, Spain, Greece and Cyprus. What you list above is actually untrue. In Greece and Cyprus there is a curfew beyond 10pm, no mixing of households and you need to send a text message requesting permission to move from part A to part B and you get fined if you get caught somewhere outside a reasonable route linking your planned trip. You are only allowed 2 text messages every 24 hours. So if say you are going to the supermarket you are allowed to get there and back, that’s it. You can’t visit anyone else.

In France and Spain it varies by area depending on the infection rate some you can mix but in most you can’t and there is similar curfews as above.

You cannot compare one country to another. Some countries are doing atrociously eg the U.K. and USA and others are doing amazingly eg NZ so their restrictions won’t be the same.

Furthermore I am a doctor and I have to look after people who are dying because of Covid so I suggest you being told to not mix is the least of your worries. Imagine all the families who have lost multiple members. Several families where both parents are dead leaving behind small children. So if you want to whine about how unfortunate you are to not be mixing, go ahead but I suggest you don’t break the rules. Lots of people are dying due to others being selfish and breaking the rules.

Why is it always “other people” breaking the rules who cause people to die? Is it never the rule breakers themselves?

Also, as a doctor you’ll know that Covid is just one of many things that kills people, we don’t grind our country to a halt for an indeterminate time for any other. Plenty of kids will have lost parents due to cancer and other illnesses going untreated due to only Covid mattering.

BestArty · 05/03/2021 22:34

Redcurrant Puff it’s true that people die due to lots of reasons. However you don’t get whole families dying en masse in the western world in their droves. And the death rates are reduced by taking precautions as opposed to cancer which is a complex interplay between genes and environment so in general cannot be prevented in most cases. You are pretending to be dense because you want to explain why it’s ok to break the rules.

Re: people dying because other people break the rules. I am sure lots of people die because they themselves broke the rules. If you are an adult and understand the consequences of your actions and can accept them then you are do as you please and if you die, then that was your choice and perhaps you died whilst having what you perceive a good time.

But imagine elderly patients who have no family to help them and cannot use the internet to order their food and are forced to go to the shop and meet another 30 people who just spent the day all together at a party who decided to go buy some snacks. Who do you think is mostly likely to die?

Wellingtonone · 05/03/2021 22:35

I do agree with your overall post but that’s not true about france. My family live there they had rules about mixing indoors Altho they are relaxed now. Not completely tho.

MercyBooth · 05/03/2021 22:39

Jesus @Snowrabbit the blase attitudes to what is basically the falsification of documents. It wouldnt be okay for anything else.

rawalpindithelabrador · 05/03/2021 22:43

Why is it always “other people” breaking the rules who cause people to die? Is it never the rule breakers themselves?

Also, as a doctor you’ll know that Covid is just one of many things that kills people, we don’t grind our country to a halt for an indeterminate time for any other. Plenty of kids will have lost parents due to cancer and other illnesses going untreated due to only Covid mattering.

Ssshhh! Doesn't fit with the shame-based, guilt-tripping narrative to control every aspect of peoples' lives.

chaosmaker · 05/03/2021 23:25

No idea what other countries people are like but her when a tiny let up has been given, people have gone totally overboard and at every step have been trying to find loopholes as to why none of it applies to them. Maybe this is why it's been specifically no household mixing and I'm sure everyone knows people who haven't changed any of their behavious all the way through.