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Only country with a household mixing ban

417 replies

ByTheHarbour · 04/03/2021 01:58

Hi, I've been lurking for a while! Sorry for the long and rather ranty first post but I just wanted to raise some awareness of this and get it off my chest, because I'm feeling increasingly agitated about it and feel that there is very little awareness at the moment.

Obviously all mixing in our own homes is banned, indeed criminalised, as it was between March and July last year and now again in almost all of the country since November and apparently until at least May. Of course in many areas it also remained banned for some or all of the time in between - Leicester is going to reach at least 14 consecutive months under this law!

It is presented by our government and scientists as being totally inevitable that household mixing must be banned in a pandemic, and that anyone who disagrees isn't being realistic. Yet the reality is that almost no other European country has banned it. Here's the latest I can find on restrictions in comparable European countries:

France - no limits on being in other people's homes, as long as you don't come or go during the curfew hours.

Italy - Maximum of two adult guests per household at any time, plus any children

Belgium - a type of bubble system for non-household indoor contacts (called "cuddle contacts"!). But massively different to our bubbles, as every individual is allowed their own cuddle contact not just one per household. People living alone are allowed two cuddle contacts.

Netherlands - Each household may receive one adult visitor per day, children not counted (the adult number has only recently and temporarily been reduced to one, normally it has been two or three)

Germany - Any indoor gathering consisting of one household plus one person from another household is allowed. This was a temporary tightening introduced in January, and is being relaxed again from next Monday to be five adults from two households (plus any children).

Switzerland - rule of 5

Austria - General ban, but with exemptions for "closest relatives" and non-cohabiting couples.

Denmark - rule of 5

Sweden - advice to limit contact to a close circle

It's worth stressing that in many of these countries the rules have never been stricter than shown above at any point at all during the pandemic (and were of course much less strict during the summer), and furthermore the relaxation of household restrictions has generally been one of the highest priorities in each lockdown easing - see Germany above for example, easing this first in its unlocking. The sort of situation that we had in some parts of England last summer, where pubs and bars were open until the small hours of the morning but any mixing in your own home or even your own garden was completely illegal, is just absolutely off-the-scale compared anything that has been done anywhere else in the world as far as I'm aware.

Our government (and also Ireland) appear to be literally the only ones who have legislated to restrict family life to anything like this extent and duration. Nowhere else has attempted to confine people by law to a completely closed and rigid household/bubble system. In almost all other countries, this kind of government micromanagement of every private interaction just hasn't been on the agenda at all, as far as I can tell.

I've been astonished and actually quite frightened that this has happened here, and even more astonished at how little pushback there's been and how quickly it has come to be accepted as normal. In fact, despite already having these extra-draconian measures, it has often felt like most dissenting voices in this country have still been those calling for "even more, even harder, even stricter, even longer".

I think in part it's being driven by a widespread public misconception here that other countries are all doing "proper lockdowns" and therefore must be under similar or even stricter household rules than us, so I just wanted to post this to highlight that that really isn't the case at all and that our government has gone drastically further than others on this matter.

I really think that even the smallest of allowances, such as allowing one visitor at a time, makes such a huge difference to people. It means that, for example, a parent can legally visit a child or vice versa, or that a couple can legally see each other even if they don't meet the qualifying criteria for a support bubble, or that a lonely person who sadly doesn't have any close friends or relatives to bubble with can still have an acquaintance in for a cup of tea. I really do think that the countries such as Germany and the Netherlands, who have stopped at that level of restriction, have got it right - that that is as far as the government can reasonably go and that criminalising all mixing for months or even years just isn't an appropriate policy option in a free and civilised country - and that our government has got it very badly and uniquely wrong.

I think particularly of people who live in households which aren't their appropriate social group, for example one adult child living with one parent - they have been legally denied all indoor contact with anyone except each other, with anyone their own age, even with their own partners. Or people living in houseshares or as lodgers, whose "household" is just random people who they live with for purely financial reasons - they aren't deemed eligible for a support bubble as they don't live alone, and therefore all indoor contact with anyone who they actually care about has been outlawed indefinitely. If they've been completely following the government "rules" then they shouldn't even have hugged anyone since last March (if the people who they live with aren't people they would hug). Really, I think that's just appalling. I know people in this position.

A year ago this would all have seemed utterly unthinkable. Anyone suggesting that this degree of government control over our personal interactions could happen in this country and could be sustained for so long, even in a pandemic of this nature, would have been laughed out of the room. People in the other countries above would no doubt also have believed it would be unthinkable in their countries - and it turns out that they would have been correct about that. So how in this country have we ended up here? How have we gone off at such an extreme tangent compared to all the others?

The right to family and private life is one of the most fundamental rights of all, and while of course there can be emergencies which require those rights to be curtailed by the government I would have always just assumed that the level of government respect for these rights in this country, and the extent to which they would deem it appropriate to to curtail them in any particular crisis, would be broadly the same as in those other countries which we consider to be our peers as western democracies. It has shocked me quite profoundly and, I think, permanently, to discover during the last year that that clearly isn't the case and that we have diverged so far from the rest of the free world on this. I literally would never have suspected that about this country, and to be honest I'm really struggling to make sense of it. Family matters more than anything, even if you don't live in the same household as them. The sanctity of the family home matters enormously - how dare the government criminalise my young adult children if they enter. Intimate relationships also matter enormously, whether or not the partners live together, and banning them for most of a year is just not within the government's reasonable remit. The rest of Europe clearly gets all this. I used to be under the illusion that we did too.

And I fear that we have now uniquely set a horrendous precedent that it's fine for the government to intrude into our homes and completely switch 'household mixing' off whenever it likes, and for however long it likes, as a mainstream tool of public health policy. And I find that prospect totally unacceptable and terrifying. Am I wrong?

(I should also just add a little caveat about the Kent variant, as I know it will be brought up. Clearly that is something which came along and whacked us very unexpectedly and I would be far more understanding of the government if our unusually intrusive restrictions had only come about as a temporary response to that moment of acute crisis. But, what disturbs me is that they had actually already been in place for many months by then, throughout a time when we were facing exactly the same virus situation as the rest of the world.)

OP posts:
Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 09:35

@ByTheHarbour you sound intelligent, which is what worries me. I simply can’t understand why people can’t see the potential risk with household mixing - and this is such a crucial time with schools returning. The horrific pain of losing a family member, of being unable to access NHS care - far outweighs the pain of not mixing until - hopefully - the vaccine controls this virus. If it’s death v’s mental health struggles/collapsing businesses - then I’m sorry but 120000 deaths plus the long Covid/plus the delayed NHS treatments/struggling hospitals comes first.

ByTheHarbour · 05/03/2021 10:44

[quote Silverthorny]@ByTheHarbour you sound intelligent, which is what worries me. I simply can’t understand why people can’t see the potential risk with household mixing - and this is such a crucial time with schools returning. The horrific pain of losing a family member, of being unable to access NHS care - far outweighs the pain of not mixing until - hopefully - the vaccine controls this virus. If it’s death v’s mental health struggles/collapsing businesses - then I’m sorry but 120000 deaths plus the long Covid/plus the delayed NHS treatments/struggling hospitals comes first.[/quote]
It's not that anyone can't see the potential risk, it's just a question of whether our response to it is a proportionate one and whether we have struck the right balance. And when our chosen response is pretty much unprecedented in our history and also significantly different to what most other countries are now doing, I think its reasonable to ask that question.

There are lots of risks, including risks of death, which as a society we accept the need to find a reasonable balance with rather than outright banning all sources of the risk. And the same is true of Covid - clearly in this country and all countries there are huge numbers of activities which aren't strictly essential and do pose a transmission risk but have nonetheless been allowed by government / society to continue during the pandemic.

It seems more a question of where our priorities lie. Some posters upthread have suggested that maybe other countries have stricter business restrictions etc, to compensate for their looser household restrictions while keeping the overall transmission risk the same, and there may well be truth in that. It seems that in deciding which things to allow / reopen our government has, pretty uniquely, attached almost zero importance to family and private life, while the countries in my OP have clearly given far greater prioritisation to that.

OP posts:
sashagabadon · 05/03/2021 12:36

I get your point BytheHarbour. It is all extraordinary if you stop and think about it. I can’t by law go and visit my elderly parents. That is crazy and I get the arguments that it is government over reach and I wonder why also seemingly intelligent posters can’t at least also see your point of view.
My understanding is re. France is that the Government there are not allowed to restrict visitors to a citizens home probably a result of the French Revolution? But anyway, France can’t make it illegal to go and visit your mum and dad.

Delatron · 05/03/2021 13:08

That’s true about France. And Sweden.

I think it shows intelligence to question these laws and ‘rules’ rather than blindly accept them..

It’s against the law to see family indoors. Crazy.

grenadines · 05/03/2021 13:10

[quote Silverthorny]@ByTheHarbour you sound intelligent, which is what worries me. I simply can’t understand why people can’t see the potential risk with household mixing - and this is such a crucial time with schools returning. The horrific pain of losing a family member, of being unable to access NHS care - far outweighs the pain of not mixing until - hopefully - the vaccine controls this virus. If it’s death v’s mental health struggles/collapsing businesses - then I’m sorry but 120000 deaths plus the long Covid/plus the delayed NHS treatments/struggling hospitals comes first.[/quote]
This is exactly why we should have been allowed to see our elderly parents who now have at least one vaccination shot before the reopening of schools.

Furthermore many of us would be willing and able to see our parents outdoors (rather than inside) but even this is not currently allowed if you don't live near them.

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 13:28

@grenadines @ByTheHarbour No - the NHS has been affected on such massive scale. Just from my own experience:

  1. mum had large cancer removed just before lockdown. She needs a stoma reversal but this is looking more and more doubtful as her local hospital is still overwhelmed. She’s facing living with the stoma forever.
  2. a child family member had Covid mildly last Feb. She was exposed it it again in her class and suffered a PIMS type reaction. The whole process of getting her into a stretched hospital when she had a very high temperature was not easy, and then her mum was faced with high chance of infection risk when she was in there. It was very scary.

These two situations were terrible for my family, but I think we’ve been relatively unaffected. I cannot begin to imagine what it’s been like for some families. So I will absolutely sacrifice my social contact to save the lives of others and protect the NHS. The vaccine seems to be working, I’m completely in awe of the medics who have used their immense intelligence and skill to provide us with this, so I will damn well do as they advise. They know more than me. They may now need to battle against new variants which will mutate against the vaccine. The virus wants to keep going however much we fight against it.

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 13:39

We have been badly affected as a country - whether that’s down to a poor initial response, ageing population, a densely populated, multinational nation, because we are an island, because our health service isn’t well resourced, because of lack of border controls - who knows. So our lockdown measures need to be harsher.

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 13:44

And I’m slightly in awe of the virus because it does seem to be having the biggest dump on the countries that are f@@king up the world the most. Our Western greed, overconsumption, food waste has caused this pandemic. We’re exploiting the planet to a massive degree. I know we love to blame China but our demand for goods is destroying the world ecosystem and causing plants/animals to come into closer contact. I don’t want to bring my children up in a world where we exploit for our own greed. I want them to make sacrifices for the good of the whole.

Stripyhoglets1 · 05/03/2021 13:53

It's mainly spreading withing homes, workplaces or hospitals. The less mixing there is in households the less spread there will be. It won't be forever.
Shit happens - it just doesn't usually happen on a scale like this in a privileged country like ours so it's been a shock to the system!

grenadines · 05/03/2021 14:24

@Silverthorny Active elderly people like my mother who are vaccinated are now more at risk of dementia from prolonged isolation from loved ones and their normal activities than putting pressure on the NHS through being admitted with covid. I have willingly sacrificed social interaction but being cut off from parents for a prolonged period is different. I am not asking to meet my mother indoors. I would just like to go for a socially distanced walk as other people are already able to do if they have the good fortune to live close to relatives.

Xenia · 05/03/2021 14:35

The UK rules have been too harsh and take away our rights and freedoms. eg in London from 19 Dec to 29 March 2021 is a very very long time to ban all weddings even with no guests (unless you are dying).

At least the courts are starting to help

www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/covid-regulations-accused-had-right-of-silence/5107550.article
"Patrick Ormerod, the solicitor at Bindmans who acted for Neale, said: 'As the High Court stated, the courts should be wary of expanding police powers by implication – where parliament has chosen to compel speech it has done so expressly. The absence of an express obligation to give a name and address in the Coronavirus Regulations powerfully demonstrates that it does not exist.'

He added: 'There is no general common law duty to assist the police by answering questions and a person cannot be guilty of wilfully obstructing a police officer by declining to do so where there is no specific legal duty.'"

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 14:42

@grenadines of course - I agree with that completely, and you are following guidelines. It’s more about household mixing and why our country has had harsher guidelines - and why I agree with them. The things I question was whether the lockdown last year should have happened sooner, and whether a circuit breaker at autumn half term could have prevented more deaths.

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 14:47

@xenia no, no they haven’t. Freedom v’s the death of loved ones?? We’ve been badly affected by Covid as a country, we’ve needed harsher restrictions. I am absolutely in favour of limiting my social contact if it saves the life of another.

clarepetal · 05/03/2021 14:51

Agreed with you, which is why I've ignored it.
I might get flamed here, but I'm not holding parties, I only go out to get my shopping at the moment (and that is click and collect). I take my son to visit my mum and brother once a week, for his sanity as well as mine as he hasn't interacted with other children since before Xmas.
To not see them is inhumane, I'm not being told what to do by a bunch of nepotistic arrogant unorganised bunch of arseholes government.

Silverthorny · 05/03/2021 14:56

@clarepetal - I think this is the issue though. We see the advice as coming from the government. We need to see it more as coming from the scientists. They are advocating the same thing - and this is why I listen.

rawalpindithelabrador · 05/03/2021 15:05

I agree, Xenia. And I lost my father to Covid.

wellthatsunusual · 05/03/2021 15:17

[quote Silverthorny]@xenia no, no they haven’t. Freedom v’s the death of loved ones?? We’ve been badly affected by Covid as a country, we’ve needed harsher restrictions. I am absolutely in favour of limiting my social contact if it saves the life of another.[/quote]
I don't think it's as simple as that. Lives are being saved by lockdown measures and it's costing lives too. There are a lot of elderly people who have been protected from Covid which is great, but on the flipside their health has deteriorated through lack of mental stimulation, lack of company and lack of physical activity. They are shadows of what they were a year ago. And some haven't survived.

MercyBooth · 05/03/2021 15:24

I didnt see such concern when people were dying due to disability benefits being cut. People wernt prepared to do anything to save another life there. And post Grenfell people were still being derogatory to social housing tenants. But i guess in these situations it was harder to virtue signal on social media so people didnt bother. Because it didnt involve a visual cue like masks i suppose it didnt interest people.

Its not about saving another life. Its about making it more likely an NHS bed is free. Sharp elbow syndrome.

RedGoldAndGreene · 05/03/2021 16:09

We've had certain things laxer in England than other countries eg we've never been told how far we can travel for exercise. Some people place more emphasis on the rules about leaving your home to be laxer than the rules about socialising in homes,

England needed the stopping of household mixing to offset schools returning without mitigation measures like rotas and ventilation/air filter systems. In an idea world they would have invested in making schools more Covid secure so that mixing and other activity could take place but that's a decision that BJ took. The CMO has said on many occasions that household transmission is the highest source of infection.

You might be happy if the rules allowed one extra person in your home. However I recall a lot of people trying to fudge rules when it was Rule of Six and argue that kids sleeping upstairs don't count etc There's been a lot of "The rules don't apply to me" and "Why hasn't the government designed rules that would benefit my specific circumstances" which is why it's easier for them just to say no to everyone.

expatinspain · 05/03/2021 17:17

In my region in Spain there is no mixing of households. People ignore it though!

LifesTooShortForYourNonsense · 05/03/2021 17:22

Suck it up. Get on with it, it’s not really a hardship and it won’t be for long. 😊

wanderings · 05/03/2021 17:26

It won't be forever.
It was "nothing to worry about".
It was only going to be three weeks.
It was only going to be twelve weeks.
It was going to be normalish by Christmas.
It was going to be significant normality by Easter.
Gaslighting par excellence.
As for "all legal measures removed on 21st June": I'll believe that when I see it. (If not, I will join the rioters who are certain to descend, it will be summer then.)

Ssandy52 · 05/03/2021 17:27

I agree with OP. I think most people are ignoring it to some extent anyway.

GlomOfNit · 05/03/2021 17:28

I think I'm right in saying that in Portugal, the lockdown is even stricter than here, AND enforced. You certainly can't mix households and at weekends aren't even allowed out of your municipality (quite a small area, like a parish here) for shopping, etc. It's meant to cut down on illegal family meet-ups. You DO get stopped and questioned when out in your car, and you WILL get moved on during your daily exercise if a passing cop doesn't think you're moving fast enough.

(Incidentally, Portuguese cases and deaths have fallen very steeply since this was put in place and they've gone from the world no.1 for deaths and cases per 10,000 to a case rate significantly below the UK now...)

I'm not happy at the moment - who is? But I'm an adult and the alternative looks like 10s of 1000s of extra deaths on top of the ones we've already recorded.

Bertiebiscuit · 05/03/2021 17:33

Grow up and follow the rules - it won't kill you. Covid easily could