Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

Redcurrant - a vaccine is an invasive medical procedure because it breaks the skin. www.actforlibraries.org/the-difference-between-invasive-and-noninvasive-procedures/

I honestly think vaccine passports for all sorts of things - flying, cinema - will be here a lot sooner than we think.

The vaccine programme depends on the vast majority of people having it for it to work. Think he needs to bite the bullet.

@Purplerayhan

Dentists have to have TB vaccine or xant practice

This is incorrect- it isn't compulsory, see the guidance below:

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/854532/Hepatitis_B_vaccine_advice.pdf

"Can dental professionals work if they are not vaccinated?
Yes. Health clearance guidance, applicable to dental professionals, recommends ‘offering hepatitis B vaccine’ and under normal circumstances, it would be strongly recommended that all dental professionals be vaccinated. Additional health clearance for new dental professionals who will perform EPPs (i.e. dentists and dental hygienists/therapists) requires evidence of absence of hepatitis B infection, which is straightforward to demonstrate via a blood test."

Good.

People talking about compulsory vaccines in the UK are fear-mongering.

That link was about Hep B, not TB

When some starts spouting ‘too soon’ I want to know their scientific credentials and also all the other risk factors they’ve taken in their life choices.

We’re not talking chicken pox vaccine here. This is an precedented situation and choices have consequences beyond yourself. Take it and very small risk of side effects. Don’t, you risk yourself, your job and others.

People talking about compulsory vaccines in the UK are fear-mongering.

People who are explaining that they already work in roles which require compulsory vaccines ( for those who are medically able to do so) are not fear mongering just talking facts.

Why would TB vaccine be required for dentists? TB is caught from prolonged close contact it’s only offered to very limited HCP as most are not at risk.

@animalfarmagain

People talking about compulsory vaccines in the UK are fear-mongering.

No. It’s the opposite. It’d be fear-mongering if people who weren’t vaccinated were allowed to continue working with vulnerable people. That makes me fearful.

There is a difference between compulsory and strongly recommended

@KeepWashingThoseHands

When some starts spouting ‘too soon’ I want to know their scientific credentials and also all the other risk factors they’ve taken in their life choices.

We’re not talking chicken pox vaccine here. This is an precedented situation and choices have consequences beyond yourself. Take it and very small risk of side effects. Don’t, you risk yourself, your job and others.

Perhaps OP's husband is worried about potential long term side effects, that nobody knows anything about yet.

Just feels it’s too soon.

So wants others to go first, while he waits to see what happens?

Nice.

@QueenOfThorns

That link was about Hep B, not TB

Apologies. Nevertheless I can't see any mandatory instruction for BCG (TB) vaccines currently for UK dentists? Have you got a link?

I can only find this: www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/when-is-bcg-tb-vaccine-needed/

Mind you, lots of British dentists would've already had the TB vaccine through school in the 80s/90s.

I think a lot of vaccines are recommended to the employee - to protect the employee, but they are recommended and not compulsory.

Good hygiene and mitigating cross-contamination risks will always be key.

@southeastdweller

I’m quite sure he is and as I’ve said everything had risks. I also said choices have consequences.

What’s your suggestion if everyone took that view and the risk they pose other people. We should stay in lockdown literally indefinitely as no one has the vaccine - how do you get data.

Do tell? I work in drug discovery and am all ears to hear the suggestions.

Lemons - "No. It’s the opposite. It’d be fear-mongering if people who weren’t vaccinated were allowed to continue working with vulnerable people. That makes me fearful."

Most of the vulnerable will have been vaccinated. There is no need for someone to worry about the health status of the person treating or caring for them. If the person needing care is particularly vulnerable then I'm sure that would be addressed. People are spreading fear about this issue when it is not necessary. And people worrying about the health status of other people need to get a grip.

@RevolutionRadio You get given a card with your name date, vaccine given and the batch number at your first appointment

My DH never got this at his first vaccination.

@endlesssnow

People talking about compulsory vaccines in the UK are fear-mongering.

People who are explaining that they already work in roles which require compulsory vaccines ( for those who are medically able to do so) are not fear mongering just talking facts.

So which roles are they?

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9076/ This indicates there's no mandatory vaccinations for any roles.

@animalfarmagain

This is incorrect- it isn't compulsory, see the guidance below:

*https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/854532/HepatitisBvaccineadvice.pdf

"Can dental professionals work if they are not vaccinated?
Yes. Health clearance guidance, applicable to dental professionals, recommends ‘offering hepatitis B vaccine’ and under normal circumstances, it would be strongly recommended that all dental professionals be vaccinated. Additional health clearance for new dental professionals who will perform EPPs (i.e. dentists and dental hygienists/therapists) requires evidence of absence of hepatitis B infection, which is straightforward to demonstrate via a blood test*

That guidance was withdrawn in December 2019 and was only an interim guidance when the Hep B vaccine was unavailable worldwide. Don't post misleading links as fact. That's immoral.
I can assure that I was vaccinated for Hep B & TB as a dental student 30 year ago and several others I'd missed out on as a child like rubella. There were no exceptions, I'd have been off the course if I'd have declined. But then as a healthcare professional, I actually want to protect my patients.

@BungleandGeorge

I’m not sure they can dismiss him since he is already employed, presumably as a carer rather than a registered nurse? I don’t think there is a precedent set, not for hep b as some have suggested as it’s not mandatory. Particularly not for those not doing dealing with blood, and it is slightly different as it’s there to protect the employee rather than for the benefit of others. Some people are very sure it should be mandatory but do you also think that care homes should evict their residents who refuse the vaccine? And would it be ok for carers themselves to refuse to be in contact with the unvaccinated? What about relative visits should they be denied unless they have the vaccination?

No. A Hep B vaccine is ultimately to protect others. If it was just for the employee’s benefit it wouldn’t be mandatory. Nobody wants to be operated on by a hepatitis positive surgeon. It would be a risk to the patient.

@KeepWashingThoseHands

When some starts spouting ‘too soon’ I want to know their scientific credentials and also all the other risk factors they’ve taken in their life choices.

We’re not talking chicken pox vaccine here. This is an precedented situation and choices have consequences beyond yourself. Take it and very small risk of side effects. Don’t, you risk yourself, your job and others.

Strictly speaking, there is not a very small risk of side effects. There is a 'very common' chance of small side effects etc

www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca/information-for-uk-recipients-on-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

People should have informed consent for their own choices, given the drug companies currently have immunity for this vaccine.

Vaccines are a good thing but people should be allowed to wait and see, without being bullied into it, depending on their own health and circumstances. Many other people will be itching to have the vaccine so supply and demand will even out. If people don't want the vaccine now, they will be able to 'catch up' at a later stage because it will be a regular vaccination.

@southeastdweller. It’s for any role where an EPP may be carried out. The term I’ve seen in official documents is where “you may lose sight of your limb in a body cavity”. So surgeons, paramedics, midwives. Students/staff in these roles who decline the vaccine should be placed on restricted duties and not allowed to perform EPP. Well you can’t have a paramedic or surgeon on restricted duties. Possibly a midwife but she wouldn’t be able to attend a birth.

Universities make it a condition of training for midwifery and paramedic courses. Every job I’ve applied for I’ve had to prove my hep b antigen status as a condition of employment. 🤷‍♀️

Funny thing about joining a union is it’s a group of people sticking together for the good of the majority. A bit like having the vaccine!

@southeastdweller I would not have been able to work as a learning disabled support worker without agreeing to have Hep B vaccinations.

I had to have a TB antibody test and when that failed a vaccination before I was cleared for work as a social worker in the north of England in an area with TB community transmission concerns. ( Other vaccinations were checked but I had a record for them)

I would not have been employed in either of these roles without being cleared by occupational health. To be cleared by occupational health I needed the vaccines. This was very clearly laid out as a condition of employment.

But they are there for everyone's protection. If you don't want to be vaccinated then social care and healthcare aren't the right area of work for you.

@RampantIvy

I can envisage families of vulnerable people insisting that the care givers are vaccinated.

Yes I can see this too, and can understand why.