Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

@MrsFCastle

For avoidance of doubt he definitely wouldn’t lie about getting it. That’s a ridiculous suggestion. I think deep down he knows that getting it is the right thing to do. I’ve told him that if he doesn’t make up his mind very very soon he should definitely seek some official advice from union and or legal. Someone asked why he hasn’t joined before now....no idea why! Legal advice is likely to be costly and we don’t have money to burn. I’m not getting into a debate on vaccines, but some Very valid and interesting points on both sides of the fence. Thanks all for your replies.

The point of a Union is in the name - people standing together for the good of the all even if it disadvantages you individually. Everyone pays subscriptions which then pay the salary of the union reps etc and pays for legal advice for the few that need it. That’s how it works.

Presumably he didn’t join before because he didn’t want to pay the fees or be expected to take action that he didn’t want to take.

Both of which are quite reasonable.

But you can’t now join because you have a problem and expect the others to effectively pay to sort it out for you by providing you with advice. It just doesn’t work that way.

I think your husband has two choices. Either he gets the vaccine or he changes job. Simple.

There’s no data on any long-term effects

The first vaccines for Covid were first designed 9/10 months ago now, and the trials started not long after. Immunologists and vaccine specialists/scientists will tell you that vaccines in general are pretty safe bets and it would be highly unusual for long term effects to develop.

One thing that has become apparent t is the long term effects of covid. Such as grief, poor mental health, job losses, loneliness...

Not to mention long Covid. Cases I have heard include Young, previous healthy individuals with no underlying conditions not being able to walk the le gtg of themselves one year later, hair falling out, chronic lung conditions, permanent heart damage...

On balance, getting a Covid vaccine is the responsible thing to do and your best hope for a normal future

@minchinfin

Glad to see social care setting, caring for the most vulnerable in society, are taking a headline against this kind of extreme selfishness.

Totally agree.

A few good points raised here that might help reassure your partner:

www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/coronavirus-can-uk-employers-require-staff-vaccinated

From the employer's, point of view, they would be at risk of being liable should your partner be unlucky enough to suffer an adverse reaction and probably won't want to take that risk:
" Mandating the vaccine could give rise to claims from employees who suffer an adverse reaction to the vaccine if a link can be established, so medical advice for employees may be required."

There is also a data protection issue for employers:
"Requiring evidence of vaccination gives rise to significant data protection issues. Employers would have to carefully consider why they need evidence of vaccination and whether it is appropriate for their business. Doing so will require a data protection impact assessment which must consider not only the reasons for requiring the data but also issues like how it will be held securely, who will have access and whether it is appropriate to hold more than a simple 'yes' or 'no'."

Also, the employer should consider why they are mandating it or threatening dismissal and if there are better alternatives:
"One of the challenges for employers will be in justifying why accommodation can be made for those who are, for example, pregnant, and not for other employees. This is likely to go to the proportionality of the approach and will be relevant should there be any legal challenge to a dismissal.

An employer seriously considering dismissing an employee as a result of a refusal to be vaccinated will need to give careful thought to whether there are any alternatives to dismissal - for example, reallocating the employee to another role where this does not amount to a detriment in the particular circumstances. Legal advice should be sought before taking any action that might involve any detriment, including dismissal, to an employee who refuses vaccination, given the fact-specific nature of these issues."

It sounds like employers should seek legal advice too!

My employer used to dictate I needed vaccines (armed forces). So I had them. Can’t see the issue.
Anyone who is on the coal face with the vulnerable, should get the vaccine. Not for them, but for the vulnerable.

I know - toooo soooon, get a grip. It's an unanticipated global pandemic that's paralyzed the world. We have multiple vaccines that will bring it down to endemic manageable respiratory virus, after a year and a half of hell, and people with no scientific or medical knowledge never mind training are bleating about having it. When there is zero evidence of any of the vaccines, that build on decades of knowledge and research, having any really serious issues whatsoever and nearly 20 million people having had it over months and months now. Baffling and selfish.

The Council of Europe (we still belong afaik) ruled against mandatory vaccination, saying that people could not be discriminated against.

Here is the relevant part:

@Pastanred

Didn’t Matt Hancock say last week that it’s perfectly acceptable for employers to put such policies in place but can’t sack someone for it

So he may be guaranteed normal hours as per his current contract

I didn’t know Matt Hancock was an employment lawyer.

For people who say that there are no long term side effects of the vaccine, we don't know yet. There are studies that show there is a risk of pathological priming - we won't fully know until the Fall when seasonal viruses circulate. Don't let your partner be bullied, OP. Informed consent means having all the information and being able to say no.

I’m not sure they can dismiss him since he is already employed, presumably as a carer rather than a registered nurse? I don’t think there is a precedent set, not for hep b as some have suggested as it’s not mandatory. Particularly not for those not doing dealing with blood, and it is slightly different as it’s there to protect the employee rather than for the benefit of others.
Some people are very sure it should be mandatory but do you also think that care homes should evict their residents who refuse the vaccine? And would it be ok for carers themselves to refuse to be in contact with the unvaccinated? What about relative visits should they be denied unless they have the vaccination?

I work in the public sector (not healthcare) and have to travel to countries where certain diseases are rife. We have to get the vaccines. If we refused I think we'd be moved to a job outside our team. It's a health and safety issue.

As I'm sure others have said, unions won't usually cover you if you have the problem before you join. It works on a similar principle to insurance - you all collectively pay fees up front so that some of you can get support if something happens. Trying to join once the problem has happened is a bit like trying to insure your car after someone's nicked it.

If you need further help, look for legal help that specialise in this area eg Clare Wills Harrison www.thelibertybeacon.com/tag/clare-wills-harrison/ who can help or signpost.

@Sadsiblingatsea

Surely forcing employees to have invasive medical procedures is illegal? Where is the precedent for this?

That would be

A vaccine isn’t an invasive medical procedure however and there is already mandatory vaccination in other jobs.

He can consider pros and cons while he dies another job. Away from vulnerable people. As for not mandating the flu vaccine, maybe it should be.

Dentists have to have TB vaccine or xant practice

@Brefugee

I’ve suggested to him he gets a copy of his contract and join a union.

I kind of hope the union flips him the bird. They're ok when you need them, right?

This 100%.

Most unions (and rightly so), will only offer new members after a qualifying period who join because they have a pre-existing issue with a half hour advice session.

From experience, what normally happens is people don't bother to join and then when they have work issues decide they need union representation and then leave when they get what they want. Union membership is not there for individuals to dip in and out of when events at work happen and when you need temporary representation and legal advice.

@Jangle33

In a word yes. It’s perfectly reasonable for employers (particularly in the healthcare sector) to require staff to have the vaccine.

There’s a lot of discussions on this and may well be legal to be sacked if he refuses, especially on the I’m not sure grounds! I wouldn’t want him on my staff.

There will be more of this as companies will say it becomes policy to work with vulnerable clients so they can dismiss if someone has 'no good reason' for not having the vaccine.

Good! If he wants to work with vulnerable people he needs to get the vaccine, or find another job.

@Alfaix

I work in Dentistry and it is required to have been vaccinated against Hep B. What’s the difference? If you don’t want the vaccine, don’t work in healthcare.

Well one difference does spring to mind in that the Hep B vaccine by Blumberg and Hilleman took from 1963 to 1981 to produce an approved vaccine followed by a safer improved vaccine being approved in 1986, with Blumberg being awarded a Nobel prize for his work.

Whereas a Covid vaccine was produced and approved in under 12 months.

Of course being a health professional you are perfectly entitled to make your own risk assessment on having the Covid vaccine but by the same measure so is the OP's DH entitled to his view on whether to have the vaccine or not without being bullied by his employer.

@SunshiningBetty

Good! If he wants to work with vulnerable people he needs to get the vaccine, or find another job.

Yes ^ this. If there medical reasons they might have to make reasonable attempt to move him to another job but if all are dealing with vulnerable clients.......

I had this discussion with a colleague last night.

He and his whole family are saying they dont want it "yet" as its too soon. Couldnt say how long it would be before they would be ok with it. I said that they must be dreading having to stay in until they were happy about the vaccine and he said that they wouldnt need to because of herd immunity after the vaccine. I pointed out that due to the high numbers of people who think like him, only those of use who had had the vaccine will actually be protected and the worst cases will happen amongst people like him.

He went a bit quiet and admitted that he hadnt really questioned it and was just following what his parents where saying (he is early 20's and still lives at home).

There has been a lot on the law on this thread. What about morality?

Just get the vaccine FFS 🙄

I am not saying this because of my stance on the topic but because don't think anyone has said this yet. I don't want to upset you OP but even if it turns out they can't lower his hours or dismiss him for this, managers will often find a way to get rid of someone they don't want there anymore. There are so so SO many instances of people being managed out, performance reviewed, budget cuts, restructuring and even though the employee might know the real reason (such as a conflict of this nature) the employer has been able to justify the termination as something else and the employee can do nothing about it. If he does decide to continue to refuse it that is also something to think about.

@MummytoCSJH

I am not saying this because of my stance on the topic but because don't think anyone has said this yet. I don't want to upset you OP but even if it turns out they can't lower his hours or dismiss him for this, managers will often find a way to get rid of someone they don't want there anymore. There are so so SO many instances of people being managed out, performance reviewed, budget cuts, restructuring and even though the employee might know the real reason (such as a conflict of this nature) the employer has been able to justify the termination as something else and the employee can do nothing about it. If he does decide to continue to refuse it that is also something to think about.

Yes excellent point and sad reality for many.