Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

[DenisetheMenace]

Mid-Feb 2020

[DenisetheMenace]

PreachyGreen and SunshiningBetty

Reading that back, I do sound a bit earnest and pious 😊

I have a lovely life, not shite at all. Also, I’m getting older and did travel in my young days so appreciate that it’s much easier for me to stay home than it is for lots of other people.

I haven’t seen my loved ones for a long time, parents December 2019, MIL March of the same year, but worse we can’t see our daughter and first Grandchild and our son has been working on College stuff from home since Mid-Feb when we saw what was coming and needed to protect his CEV dad.
He’s vaccinated now, thank providence, I shouldn’t be too much longer. Our son has asthma but is desperate to get back to College ASAP.

I do understand how difficult it is and that’s exactly the reason why I believe we all need to hang on in there for another month or so, until all over 50s are vaccinated, so we don’t collectively risk throwing away what we’ve sacrificed for the past year.

[SunshiningBetty]

@DenisetheMenace

PreachyGreen

Denise, have you done everything you possibly can to keep your carbon footprint down or does your concern for climate change not extend beyond yourself and your own family?“

Try to. As well as the usual reusing and recycling, trying not to use damaging household chemicals or personal care products, we deliberately haven’t flown for years (17 I think), drive electric (though questioning the need for that as we get closer to retirement) don’t eat red meat, walk everywhere I can, deliberately haven’t bought new clothes in years and make our own pet food now (it’s cheaper by far aside from anything else). We don’t tumble dry, iron where we can help it, use hairdryers etc., subscribe to green energy. I try to be climate conscious, no doubt there’s a whole lot more I and most of us will have to do. Very much welcome ideas of other things that could help.

I still don’t understand why you have chosen not to follow public health requirements, though, for a relatively short time. Your decision not to do so may have harmed lots of people. Not sure how I’d square that with myself.

Sounds shite

[PreachyGreen]

Ah well you got me there Denise but give me time and I am pretty sure I can come up with something where you haven't done everything you possibly can, my point being that people are generally asking for a higher standard of public spirit in this matter than they themselves exhibit in other areas.

I am pretty sure few of the other posters who have described the vaccine hesitant as stpid and selfish will be anywhere near your levels of personal responsibility so hats off to you but I think my point is generally valid. Do you ask my question of others in an equivalent way to your vaccine question? Or do you allow people more leeway when it comes to climate change?

I think your final para is probably to south eastdweller? But I can have a bash at answering if you want. There have been a couple of periods were the government didn't seem to have much of a clue or couldn't commnicate what was expected and why eg inconsistency with EatOut to helpOut, Barnard Castle etc. People got used to using common sense. Southeastdweller didn't say exactly what they had done - maybe they thought it was low risk?

I went to visit my aged aunt who had seen no family since March, before the original Christmas window as I thought the motorways would be a nightmare at the official start. I thought I was following the rules except for moving it earlier but then the rules changed. I thought it was low risk and took precautions. I can't say I feel bad about it. Maybe it's that kind of breach southeastdweller is talking about.

A relatively short time! I think it seems like a heck of a long time for my auntie.

[DenisetheMenace]

PreachyGreen

Denise, have you done everything you possibly can to keep your carbon footprint down or does your concern for climate change not extend beyond yourself and your own family?“

Try to. As well as the usual reusing and recycling, trying not to use damaging household chemicals or personal care products, we deliberately haven’t flown for years (17 I think), drive electric (though questioning the need for that as we get closer to retirement) don’t eat red meat, walk everywhere I can, deliberately haven’t bought new clothes in years and make our own pet food now (it’s cheaper by far aside from anything else). We don’t tumble dry, iron where we can help it, use hairdryers etc., subscribe to green energy. I try to be climate conscious, no doubt there’s a whole lot more I and most of us will have to do. Very much welcome ideas of other things that could help.

I still don’t understand why you have chosen not to follow public health requirements, though, for a relatively short time. Your decision not to do so may have harmed lots of people. Not sure how I’d square that with myself.

[Motorina]

Surgeons with Hep B can also continue to treat patients, again subject to regular (I think annual?) blood tests.

If a patient asked me to ensure that their treatment was provided only by HIV negative clinicians, I would say that everyone working for us has appropriate Occupational Health clearance for what they were doing, but I wouldn't share details of any individual's health with a patient.

In practice, I would only know if one of my colleagues was HIV or Hep B positive if they told me - all I get from occy health is, "Fully cleared", "Cleared subject to these restrictions", or "not fit to practice". Everything else is rightly private between the individual staff member and occy health.

At present it's the same with vaccines. Not only can I not ensure that someone is cared for by vaccinated staff, I genuinely do not know who in my team has had it.

[HIVpos]

An astonishing number get covid19 while in hospital, and even consultants are refusnics. But a surgeon who is H.I.V or Hep positive cannot, by law, continue. Why is what's good for surgeons not good for medical and care staff?

@alwayslucky I'm not sure what you mean here? If you are stating that a surgeon who is HIV+ cannot by law continue to practice, this is not true. They can as long as they fulfil certain criteria (eg extra tests and undetectable viral load as the vast majority have anyway in the UK) www.tht.org.uk/hiv-and-sexual-health/being-diagnosed-hiv/telling-people/employers

[PreachyGreen]

Reasons my colleagues gave for not being vaccinated yet:

A. I hate needles, I'll take a nasal spray.

B. They say it affects fertility so I'm going to wait and see what happens with that - 2 staff

C. That Pfizer is always getting sued; it's a terrible company, I like the sound of that new one and they make it over here (Novovax)

D. I had it last month so I'm immune at the moment so I can wait and see what happens

E. I had covid last month when staff were going for vaccinations so I had to wait. I'll get round to it (doesn't have own transport)

F. I had it and it wasn't as bad as flu but I might get vaccinated. Not decided yet

G. I have allergies so I've been told not to have it yet.

H.You can still catch covid even when vaccinated so if I get it it would be for me and not these guys (service users).If it makes a difference to them then I'll get it

I. I am very careful about what I put in my body. I only take herbal remedies and try and keep medicine to a minimum

J. TBC ( That's all he said!)

So 5 of those reasons were from white British staff, 3 Afro-Caribbean, 1 African immigrant, 2 British Pakistani

So which are the selfish stupid reasons bearing in mind no one likes to be called racist so black and Asian people are allowed to have vaccine hesitancy while white people all have identical culture and influences so no free pass.

Oh and 2 of those reasons came from autistic people. Not sure if the mumsnet judgement panel allows exceptions for neurodiverse people.

[PreachyGreen]

SimplyGrateful, well probably in the short term but we can't know for sure what will happen with covid rates long term. If covid drops to a rare event then I think it will be similar to flu. The onus will be on the vulnerable to get vaccinated and no one much will enquire about vaccination of care home staff just like they don't ask about flu now.

Xenia, last stat I saw the reverse was true - South Asian uptake higher than black. I'll have a hunt later and see if I can find it.

minchinfin, most issues are the same as for white people who are vaccine hesitant just disproportionately influence black and Asian communities.

There is a fringe who say the vaccines are not halal and the Oxford one has a tiny amount of alcohol but that isn't influencing the Muslim staff at work as they are fine with vaccines having a medical exemption and therefore not haram.

I'll do reasons as a separate post as I hate super long posts.

Denise, have you done everything you possibly can to keep your carbon footprint down or does your concern for climate change not extend beyond yourself and your own family?

This issue is no different to any other action for the greater good. One person's actions will not swing it either way. If people are allowed to make up their own mind about what they do about climate change then why can't they about the vaccine?

[alwayslucky]

An astonishing number get covid19 while in hospital, and even consultants are refusnics. But a surgeon who is H.I.V or Hep positive cannot, by law, continue. Why is what's good for surgeons not good for medical and care staff?
There is an argument made that care home and social care workers shouldn't be asked to choose between infecting and killing people at work or having a safe jab if they "don't want it"
The suggestion is, no employment conditions can be imposed, however reasonable, in case the staff choose unemployment instead, with the problem that all the unemployed bar staff and air crew and others on full pay for over a year must be permitted also to 'choose' doing nothing at the taxpayers' expense. Care work and agricultural work has plenty of vacancies, but can never compete with being paid the same, or far more, for staying in bed.

[SimplyGrateful]

Whatever people who are avoiding taking the vaccine say now, the vast majority of them will be lining up to take their jabs if and when vaccine "passports" start to come in.

In my view, it won't be our governments that drive the need for proof of vaccination, but businesses (and possibly foreign governments when it comes to international travel). Just as people will not want their loved ones to live in care homes where there are unvaccinated workers, people won't want to be in theatres, cinemas, planes, hotels etc where they are likely to be in close contact with others who may be carrying Covid.

There are a substantial number of older people with money to spend and the time to spend it, but many may be particularity wary of doing so unless they are able to feel safe. Businesses may need to be taking all possible steps to make them feel safe.

[DenisetheMenace]

21:00 southeastdweller

Are these people prepared to isolate until they deign to have a vaccine though? I somehow doubt it.


“I certainly won't be, but then I pretty much haven't anyway since this started.”

Why? Does your health concern not extend beyond yourself and your own family?

[Xenia]

It is Bangladeshi and Pakistani families I believe now more than black who have most issues with the voluntary vaccine. I am happy it is voluntary even if some groups choose not to have it. I would rather have more freedom even if that means more deaths including of me and my family. Also we have a UK 94% rate of vaccination in those offered it because it is voluntary . It is one reason our vaccine use in the UK is very good. No force. Same with the flu jab in the NHS every year.#

The FT has an interest article today about the ultra orthodox in Israel and the choice of some, not all, of them not to have the vaccine.

[minchinfin]

What are the issues for some BAME communities? Is it a religious/halal type objection or something else?

[PreachyGreen]

There is a whole load of history and backstory that leads to those communities distrusting governments, messaging, healthcare etc. Be careful about making such a glib comparison.

Ha ha, I can't work out how it's me being glib and not you Minty. If black people are allowed to have a back story and not want a vaccine because of it then why not white people? Are Eastern Europeans the right kind of white people who are allowed to wait for the vaccine as they have a back story?

My point about selfishness wasn’t about those who refuse ever to take the vaccine. It is about those claiming they will only do it once they see people, including the most vulnerable people in society don’t suffer any ill effects from it. That’s a pretty shitty thing to do.

What if ethnic minority groups are more likely to believe that? You'll be in exactly the same logical dead end. You don't want to call black people more likely to be shitty do you?

If "selfishness" and "shitty" actions were measurable how can you possibly say they vary between ethnic minorities and from country to country? Surely if something is shitty in the UK then it's shitty in France?

People are selcting an action they find personally easy and designating the out group for whom it's a harder choice as selfish. Was that equally true of the flu vaccine? Because I never saw the threads on here? Is it equally true of organ donation?

I hope all you unselfish posters are signed up to donate bone marrow to a stranger because it's pretty shitty if not. I hope you all don't have an SUV or take lots of flights because that contributes to climate change and can lead to EXTINCTION. Which is pretty shitty. I hope none of you ever buy any plastic packaging because a dolphin could die!!!

Every day all of us take choices which suit us but may have an adverse impact on others. Generally we do not police the choice of others. Most of us don't go full Extinction Rebellion even though the death toll from climate change is potentially higher than covid.

Why is the vaccine choice an indicator of virtue and not holiday flights?

I'm all on board with increasing uptake of the vaccine but I think the moral crusade has no impact on uptake so why are people doing it?

[PigletJohn]

Just keep ignoring anything you don't like.

Avoid adult discussion.

[southeastdweller]

You're not naive enough to take at face value stats produced by the government...or are you?

[PigletJohn]

To see if there is any foundation for your opinion.

No.

You are just avoiding information you don't like.

[southeastdweller]

@PigletJohn

Hello, *@southeastdweller* I see you're back.

You remember when you turned up your nose at a representative sample of 6,000 British residents, I wondered what better source you have.

Do you have one?

Of course I don’t, what was the point of you asking me?

[PigletJohn]

Hello, @southeastdweller I see you're back.

You remember when you turned up your nose at a representative sample of 6,000 British residents, I wondered what better source you have.

Do you have one?

[MintyMabel]

You kind of remind me of the Queen and her bizarre message last week about 'duty', which was ridiculous. But she's 94 so I can understand it from her.

You don’t have to be 94 to believe in a collectively working for what is best for society. If you want to call it duty, you do that. I see it as playing my part in getting us all out of this shitshow.

So how about black and Asian people. We know that in the UK at least those communities have a lower take up of the vaccine. Are the "it's selfish" posters really saying there is more selfishness among black and Asian people?

There is a whole load of history and backstory that leads to those communities distrusting governments, messaging, healthcare etc. Be careful about making such a glib comparison.

My point about selfishness wasn’t about those who refuse ever to take the vaccine. It is about those claiming they will only do it once they see people, including the most vulnerable people in society don’t suffer any ill effects from it. That’s a pretty shitty thing to do.

[PreachyGreen]

Nobody was bothered when I went on about the French being more vaccine hesitant. I wanted people to think about whether it was likely that one nation was more selfish than another.

But it seems no one is worried about calling the French stupid and selfish.

So how about black and Asian people. We know that in the UK at least those communities have a lower take up of the vaccine. Are the "it's selfish" posters really saying there is more selfishness among black and Asian people?

Or are people reducing a multi-faceted issue to a moral crusade?

Thanks for the link DaisyDukes. I only read a few posts but yes an interesting contrast.

[southeastdweller]

Minty You kind of remind me of the Queen and her bizarre message last week about 'duty', which was ridiculous. But she's 94 so I can understand it from her.

[southeastdweller]

@TheKeatingFive

Alternatively, ‘I’m worried about potential side effects impacting on my health and family’.

Are these people prepared to isolate until they deign to have a vaccine though? I somehow doubt it.

I certainly won't be, but then I pretty much haven't anyway since this started.

[MintyMabel]

And more specifically, “rather it was tested on the most vulnerable in society first”