Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

Are all the clever unselfish posters on this thread lining up to get a low-paid care job? Or are they judging from a lofty distance?

The lofty position of working in a school for low pay with a significant number of clinically extremely vulnerable children and staff, actually. Having already experienced what it feels like to wake up choking in my own fluids, I would have preferred not to undergo that experience in the first place and if there is even the slightest chance that I could get the same illness again and transmit it to the children already dealing with immunosuppressants, chemotherapy, lung disease, Diabetes, inflammatory bowel disease or cause a member of staff/a family member of theirs to die, I owe it to them to not be that selfish, stupid person.

I’m not anti vaccine myself but I am watching the longer term data. I honestly wouldn’t take any new vaccine until I had seen the 12 month data. I’m amazed anyone would unless very high risk.

So in your view, everyone should hold off taking the vaccine until there's 12 month data - but if nobody takes it, or very few people do, there will be no data, so people still won't want to take it - so where do you go from there?

Pensionista, I have 13 years experience of working in health research. You have 'opinions'. Sadly, we now live in a world where people think their opinion is as valid and should carry as much weight as years of study, adherence to validated methodology and expertise. Yep, I'm with Haffiana. If having a narrow mind means actually using it critically, I'm fine with that.

Pointythings,
Well done, with your 13 years experience. You have no idea what my experience is and yet you think you use your mind critically, using the same words as your amazing friend Haffiana, oh dear such assumptions, telling me.... "you have opinions"....does that mean I shouldn't have them, or does that mean you don't have opinions ? The mind boggles with your 'critical thinking'. Maybe you should have studied what 'critical thinking' is, alongside people that have 'opinions ' are they the baddies or goodies ? Like I said JOG ON.

Pensionista you are completely allowed to have opinions. But if your opinions and experiences lead you to believe in someone who thinks vaccines cause autism, despite the body of current scientific research not backing that up, that's going to make me think you are of a mindset that leans towards the antivaxxer movement. Have you worked in research, monitored trial data, set up studies, trained in valid informed consent? You seem to be getting very angry for no reason except that your assertions are being challenged.

I can envisage families of vulnerable people insisting that the care givers are vaccinated.

Of course I am going to make sure all employees at a potential care home are fully vaccinated against Covid before even considering sending a loved family member there.

@UserEleventyNine

I’m not anti vaccine myself but I am watching the longer term data. I honestly wouldn’t take any new vaccine until I had seen the 12 month data. I’m amazed anyone would unless very high risk.

So in your view, everyone should hold off taking the vaccine until there's 12 month data - but if nobody takes it, or very few people do, there will be no data, so people still won't want to take it - so where do you go from there?

But as you can see lots of people want to have it regardless, so the minority who wish to wait and see should be allowed to do so. What's the problem with that?

With an ageing population, fewer EU migrants and the possibility of plenty of choice when it comes to lower paid jobs, I think the care sector might soon think twice about mandating vaccination for a disease that will probably be long long soon anyway.

What will happen if younger people refuse and the care and health sector struggle to recruit even more than they do now?

Of course I am going to make sure all employees at a potential care home are fully vaccinated against Covid before even considering sending a loved family member there.

Well yes. Likewise if a majority of care staff are refusing to get vaccinated then it would be a problem for councils to place people there too.

Yes they can do it and quite right too.

There’s no data on any long-term effects.

This is the case for many medications. People still take them.

There is not a single vaccine that has ever been shown to have long term effects. And the basic make up of most of the vaccines is tried and tested.

Only in the privileged 2021 world could we be so obtuse about this.

@dividedwefall

With an ageing population, fewer EU migrants and the possibility of plenty of choice when it comes to lower paid jobs, I think the care sector might soon think twice about mandating vaccination for a disease that will probably be long long soon anyway.

What will happen if younger people refuse and the care and health sector struggle to recruit even more than they do now?

Post lockdown, after furlough where HMGov are paying the wages of millions, many will be let go and become unemployed. Even with furlough, unemployment levels are at a 5 year high. We are predicted to have levels of unemployment that will surpass the last recession. Young people will have the highest rates of unemployment.

We have also had Brexit so the employment rights of millions of low-paid workers will be set by a TORY government, and not the EU anymore. The EU workers rights will no longer take precedence in law and can be re-written by a Conservative government who have traditionally shat on low-paid workers rights even without the current employment climate.

So realistically, anyone offering any employment will be able to be as choosy as they like.

Well here's a funny thing. Could it be the "I'm not an antivaxxer I just have opinions" bunch are losing the argument?

A total of 94% of UK adults say they are happy to receive the Covid vaccine, new ONS data shows.

Positive sentiment towards the COVID-19 vaccine increased this week with 94% of adults reporting they had now either received the vaccine or would be likely to have the vaccine if offered; an increase from the 91% reported last week.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...thesocialimpactsongreatbritain/26february2021

This week, over 3 in 10 (35%) adults in Great Britain reported they had received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine, compared with 26% last week; this increased with age with the majority (97%) of adults aged 70 years and over reporting they had received at least one dose of the vaccine.

So realistically, anyone offering any employment will be able to be as choosy as they like.

Some employers will be. But I can’t imagine those running care homes will be deluged with candidates. I said upthread even now there are still many, many care work positions vacant. If you really don’t have to work, and let’s face it, plenty of people not working can afford not to, at least for a while, why would you want a NMW job in which you may have to face regular verbal and physical abuse, do personal care, and working nights?

Personally I tend to agree with the person who said that they’d rather have an unvaccinated carer who is caring, conscientious and wants to do that job rather than someone who is vaccinated and doesn’t want to be there. It’s a very demanding job, I don’t personally think there’s going to be a huge amount of people clamouring for those jobs and who have the skills to do a good job. I may be wrong, I don’t personally feel it’s my right to insist somebody else has a vaccination but as the figures show luckily most of us are keen to have it to protect ourselves and others. Trying to make something mandatory sometimes has the opposite effect to the one you would like

Pointythings,

Have you heard of the saying, "your like a dog with a bone" ?? Again, jeez, when have I said I believe in someone who thinks vaccines cause autism ???? So bloody hell, you now know my mindset and what I lean towards??? I'd pack it in if I were you, as your starting to look like a complete idiot. Getting angry ??? Not a very good psychotherapist are you, I think your bloody hilarious. I haven't laughed so much in a long time. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to let complete strangers on the internet know my qualifications, to make myself look superior to lesser mortals. But to shut you up, the answer is yes, yes and yes, and far more than you could ever imagine.. You have forgotten the original reason why we are here, to try and help the OP with her worry about her husband, you have been so busy reflecting to your amazing qualifications, and assuming who and what you think I am. Now for the last time JOG ON.

pensionista I am as free to post on here as you are. Lots of people are trying to help OP with her DP. Some, like me, think he should not be working in any kind of caring profession if he will not take the vaccine. I've worked to support services in the NHS since the pandemic started and I know what damage this virus does. Uptake rates in the services I support is above 88%, because our people give a damn.

If you have really worked in research here in the UK and still hold the views that you do, you have learned nothing.

One reason vaccinations go so well in the Uk as they are not mandatory and people can say what they like about them. it works. So at the moment most people by far are having it so that's fine as it if people choose not to. I haven't been offered it and have not decided yet.

Xenia I agree that vaccinations should be voluntary in the majority of areas. But healthcare isn't one of them. As a health or care worker, you have obligations to protect the people you care for. Normal PPE isn't enough to do the job.

Everyone else is 100% free to refuse the vaccine, and I also think that education and information should be a first line of defence in terms of persuading vaccine hesitant people. Failing that, people who refuse the vaccine should be redeployed to non-patient facing roles. That's what is currently happening in my Trust.

But making the choice not to have the vaccine will have consequences for someone wanting a career in health and care. That's inevitable. It might not mean job loss, but it will certainly reduce the range of job options available and likely career progression too.

Some employers, ranging from care home providers to large multinationals are already consulting their lawyers to make legal amendments to new job offer letters and existing employment contracts to cover mandatory Covid vaccinations (medical cases exempted) for their employees.
I don’t know anyone who doesn’t want the vaccine as soon as possible so hopefully it’s not going to become a big issue as people will be having the vaccine willingly.

I just cannot get my head around the fact that someone would think that they have the right to remain working with vulnerable people whilst refusing a vaccine for no good reason.

They have the choice to either take up a vaccine or work in another industry but what choice does the vulnerable person have?

There was a video from
A barrister. I work in legal type work so sent to me as I’ve been very interested and ti be honest don’t want the vaccine at all. I since just had it anyway.
So employers can dismiss you if they deem their staff or client not safe of Yiu don’t have jab. It will be classed as unfair dismissal. It will take a year to get to court you will win 2 years wages. If you haven’t worked 2 years yiu habe no rights at all in the uk,
I want to travel too so feel I’ve been forced by back door to habe the jab

Sorry for typos hope makes sense

@PigletJohn

Well here's a funny thing. Could it be the "I'm not an antivaxxer I just have opinions" bunch are losing the argument?

A total of 94% of UK adults say they are happy to receive the Covid vaccine, new ONS data shows.

Positive sentiment towards the COVID-19 vaccine increased this week with 94% of adults reporting they had now either received the vaccine or would be likely to have the vaccine if offered; an increase from the 91% reported last week.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...thesocialimpactsongreatbritain/26february2021

This week, over 3 in 10 (35%) adults in Great Britain reported they had received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine, compared with 26% last week; this increased with age with the majority (97%) of adults aged 70 years and over reporting they had received at least one dose of the vaccine.

I never take much notice of those ONS surveys. They only surveyed 6,000 adults.

@southeastdweller

OOI, how many adults have you consulted (that were not preselected to be in agreement with you)?