Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

[quote Pensionista]Here you are. Its your human right to refuse especially a vaccine/gene therapy whose trials wont be finnished until 2023.

pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html[/quote]
He can refuse the vaccine. That's his right.

The employer can refuse to provide him with shifts where he interacts with high risk or vulnerable service users. That's their right.

Stupid isn't illegal. But responsible people have a duty to mitigate the stupid choices to avoid negatively impacting others.

So if people who don't have the vaccine are stupid that means countries with high numbers of vaccine hesitant have stupider populations?

By moving to France the vaccine hesitant would be more in line with the general poplation and appear less stupid then?

I'm not convinced that labelling 30% of the care workforce as stupid/irresponsible is an intelligent attitude. I am convinced that calling people stupid will not improve vaccine uptake.

There will need to be some litigation over these issues eg some people cannot have the vaccine for health reasons, some might have a religious objection, others may feel it is not yet tested on pregnant women etc

DogInATent
Fair point. However I would think this would not occurr much in the hospitality industry, by the very nature of mixing with others. If you read the code it also says no one can be coerced to take the vaccine either. Not sure what you mean by stupid choices. If he took his employer to court, his employer would loose as it also was not in his original contract. Unfair dismissal case would support him.

@DogInATent I think we could argue people taking an experimental unlicensed vaccine are stupid but we wouldn't be so rude. Everyone has their reasons for either rolling up their sleeves or saying 'thanks but no thanks'. The latter are not stupid and such language is facilitating an atmosphere of hate and resentment between those who will and those who won't. It is NOT wrong to say no.

I'm pretty sure my union requires that you are a member in good standing BEFORE the grievance you expect them to support you in

Hard to blame them really; the cry of "Join an union!!" when someone has a ruck with an employer puts me in mind of buying car insurance just after you've run it into a tree

I’m amazed vaccine uptake is so high here. In europe, vaccine scepticism is high.

I’m not anti vaccine myself but I am watching the longer term data. I honestly wouldn’t take any new vaccine until I had seen the 12 month data. I’m amazed anyone would unless very high risk.

I don’t think anyone is “stupid”. I think some people have more inquiring and less trusting minds. I haven’t always been like this - I have just been let down medically so many times and then I realised how many medics aren’t particularly smart.

The stupidity is in thinking that refusing the vaccine when working in a client-facing health and social care role will not impact the shifts you're given.

I see nothing in the new legislation for Covid or vaccinations that trumps HSWA 1974. Therefore the duties to protect others stand. The employer is fully entitled to withhold shifts. It is there duty to do so if this will protect the employee and others who may be affected by that employee's choice to refuse the vaccine.

"experimental unlicensed vaccine" - please don't use stupid against me. It's not big and it's not clever.

"I’m amazed vaccine uptake is so high here"

Because UK happened to get large supplies a little earlier than most countries.

I see no reason to suppose that other countries will find their doses lying unused, once they become available.

IMO people are quite attracted by the idea of avoiding a potentially fatal disease, when the opportunity arises.

In the past, Britain had queues of people down the street when polio outbreaks occurred.

Piglet John, I don't know if you have seen the tables that compare the intention of taking the covid vaccine. The Our World in Data one for example has France at 30% of the population saying they would have it. Most European countries below 60%, Australia around 50%.

The UK has one of the most pro vaccine populations which may be why so many people on this thread see it as an issue that's black and white/ right vs wrong/ selfish vs unselfish or even stupid and unstupid.

DogInATent
The stupidity is in thinking that refusing the vaccine when working in a client-facing health and social care role will not impact the shifts you're given.
Well if that's what you meant you expressed it quite differently the first time round and being as clever as you are you will understand why people read it as you saying vaccine hesitant = stupid. I am so glad you have a more sophisticated understanding than that.

We don't know if it's stupid to think you will still get shifts as an unvaccinated care worker as we don't know the proportion who aren't vaccinated in the company or what the outcome of a court case on the issue would be. If 50% don't take the vaccine then who will do the shifts?

Are all the clever unselfish posters on this thread lining up to get a low-paid care job? Or are they judging from a lofty distance?

DoginATent...
Not experimental ????

ahrp.org/government-consigned-israeli-population-to-be-human-subjects-in-a-massive-experiment/

Pensionista I've looked at that site. It has articles claiming Wakefield was treated badly. That's enough for me to discount every word on it.

[quote Pensionista]DoginATent...
Not experimental ????

ahrp.org/government-consigned-israeli-population-to-be-human-subjects-in-a-massive-experiment/[/quote]
I hope you're taking lots of vitamin D.
Tin foil is opaque to sunlight, and that hat is casting a lot of shade.

Goodness me after the sheer devastation caused to this country by Covid and the lockdowns any one would think that your partner would want to be part of getting back to some kind of normal not part of putting vulnerable people at risk.

"any one would think"

Unless they were French. Or one of the 30% of UK care workers who haven't had the vaccination.

I could try asking at work for you StarCat "Why is it you don't want to be part of getting back to some kind of normal not part of putting vulnerable people at risk?"

I expect that will do the trick, "You have shown me the way to moral superiority. Lead me to the vaccine" they will no doubt say.

Or one of the 30% of UK care workers who haven't had the vaccination
Without further data nobody knows why 30% of care workers have not been vaccinated yet, there are many reasons other than refusal.

94%, actually.

PuzzledObserver, I am now the Puzzled one - 94% of what?

Well how many do you think aren't included in your "anyone would think" StarCat? Maybe you need a qualifier in there like "nearly anyone would think" or " I think and really you should all agree with me and if you don't you want bad things to happen to vulnerable people."

There is more than one point of view on this and thankfully most care companies don't seem to share the view that all unvaccinated carers need is a good telling off and they'll fall into line.

Pointythings

Oh okay. You disagree, so discount everything else. No problem. Don't waste your time checking out the rest, you may find other things you disagree with, and you'll discount them.

DoginATent.

No worries, I have plenty of Vitd +k2 for absorbtion. Better in the sunlight than living in the dark, even if you need a hat occasionally. At least that way, you brain doesn't get dumbed down.

Pensionista a site that supports Andrew Wakefield, who was struck off, shown to have used the worst of dodgy methodology in his research and turned out to have a financial stake in discrediting the MMR vaccine - a site like that has no scientific integrity. So yes, that's all I need. There are plenty of reputable sources out there, with peer reviewed articles whose research has been subject to proper scrutiny. It's striking how people who are opposed to the COVID vaccine never seem to quote from any of those.

@Pensionista

Pointythings

Oh okay. You disagree, so discount everything else. No problem. Don't waste your time checking out the rest, you may find other things you disagree with, and you'll discount them.

The problem isn't that web site. It can say what it wants, and it does say what it wants.

The first person listed on their 'advisory board' believes that vaccines cause autism, for example. I say 'believes' because it has been shown for years that autism is an inherent neurological difference that a person is born with. So the belief that vaccines 'cause' autism is an article of faith, not fact.

The problem therefore is your inability to discriminate between fact and 'opinion' and to do your own research. It is never a matter of whether you 'disagree' or not. Your opinion and agreement and feelings begin and end in your own head and have nothing to do with science or facts or reality. You have an emotional attachment to the message of that website. It appeals to your feelings. It is designed to appeal to your feelings because it cannot appeal to your rationality since it is irrational. Of course you won't research further than that website because you have found what you want, and the sort of feeling of specialness that it gives you that you enjoy. Just like a religion does to its members.

You imagine therefore that other people merely 'disagree' with that website, in the same way you 'agree' with it. That isn't how scientists and rational people look at evidence however.

If you are relying on your 'opinion' and 'agreement' about a message then you are closer to a cultist, which is the sort of person that website is aimed at.

Haffiana

Wow, just wow. I bow to your powers of complete and utter superiority, psychology, knowledge of how I, a complete stranger on the internet, feels, thinks, believes, what happens in my own head, my total lack of knowledge, or my lack of research, my irrationality, what appeals to my feelings, my imagination, my cultism, how I discount anything else. If you weren't so bloody rude, I have to laugh at how absolutely ridiculous and ignorant and stupid you sound. I really can't be arsed to discuss the real points that were checked out ,about what is happening in Israel, because I can't fix stupid. So rather than bang my head against a brick wall, I'll just tell you to politely JOG ON.

I've never seen so many words say so little.

Pointythings,
Not going to argue with such a narrow mind, so I'll just say, make friends with the lovely superior one Haffiana. I'm sure you two have a lot in common and will get on well insulting those of us that are less than you, as you to seem to know whether I'm for or against the vaccine without me even mentioning a vaccine. Well done and I'll just say politely as I did with the all knowing superior , unusual powers of mind reading Haffiana, JOG ON.