Employer disadvantaging and threatening staff who haven’t had the vaccine

[MrsFCastle]

My partner works in health and social care. He isn’t an anti vaxxer. Just feels it’s too soon. His employer is furious and is threatening to stop offering shifts if they don’t get it. I’m genuinely concerned about his job security. Can they do this? Helpful replies only please. This isn’t a thread about anti/pro vax.

I work in dentistry and it is required to have been vaccinated against Hep B. What's the difference? If you don't want the vaccine, don't work in healthcare

Dear Alfaix

I too work in healthcare and I don’t want the Covid vaccine, but I’ve been vaccinated against Hep B.

The difference is: that the Hep B vaccination has been around for years with no ill effects and I can see that any negative health impact of the Hep B vaccine is negligible compared with the impact of contracting Hep B.

Whereas the Covid vaccine is a new development and therefore I currently feel more at risk from the Covid vaccine that I do from catching Covid. In particular as Covid is an illness that you can apparently have without even knowing you’ve got it (unlike Hep B).

So I am similar to OP’s partner, I had rather wait and see what happens with this unprecedented situation before queuing up to have a new vaccine injected into my arm.

To all those saying that “millions” of people have now had the vaccine. One person or millions, it makes no difference. It just means that any as yet unknown iatrogenic effects of a Covid vaccine will impact on millions of people, not one person.

But care work isn't highly paid, highly regarded or highly sought after.

Yep, and even now, at a time when employment is at its highest in five years, there are still many, many vacancies for this type of work and there always will be. It's seen to be a shitty job as it is working at McDonalds. Which leaves the care industry in something of a pickle this year.

Ilovemygirls the Oxford vaccine was trialled in the Trust where I work, and that absolutely was a double blind placebo controlled trial.

The foetal material in the vaccine is used to propagate the adenovirus and does not make it into the vaccine itself. The foetus from which the material derives was aborted in 1970 and the cells currently in use are many millions of generations down from the original.

The evidence coming out indicates that all the vaccines currently in use substantially reduce transmission of the COVID virus.

These vaccines are not massively different in terms of their structure and underlying technologies from vaccines already in use - and there is no evidence that existing vaccines affect fertility, so no reason to suppose that the COVID vaccines do.

The measles vaccine took longer to create because at that time there was very little vaccine technology in place, and science has advanced considerably since 1957. You're comparing apples and pears.

Vitamin D is showing indications of being useful, but it does not replace the vaccine in terms of prevention and mitigation.

if you are working in a job caring for vulnerable people and you refuse the vaccine without a valid reason you are probably in the wrong profession. Anyone that would knowingly put these people at risk is clearly not suited to their job
THIS.
Do or don't have the vaccine, but fuck off out of this job till he is 'convinced' enough till the internet loons change their mind

He needs to man up and have the damned jab - and remember how lucky he is to get the chance to have it - sone people are so desperate to get it and having to wait - get a grip

I too work in healthcare and I don’t want the Covid vaccine

So how long are you prepared to spend in lockdown until you’re convinced?

@truthisalie

TB and Hepatitis B vaccines are not new vaccines. You can't compare these vaccines with rushed vaccines. For now you know know about the short-term side effects but nothing about the long-term. If he OP can work wearing full PPE then it's be his right and shouldn't be threatened.

This.

Puzzledandpissedoff

A PP raised an interesting point about the employer's duty of care to other employees

I don't know how that'll work out, but if reports about the demographics of vaccine refusal are correct, the elephant in the room here is that any disciplinary measures might largely impact black and asian staff

Not sure that would be a good look TBH ...

It was me that raised this point earlier.
In essence, I believe that every employee should have the choice. I am an employee, that believes also that after every adult has been offered the vaccine - I choose not to be expected to happily work alongside anybody that has turned down the option of taking a vaccine, that can help towards keeping them & and me safe. I prefer not to work alongside those that have no consideration to my safety.
If my employer handed me faulty equipment to work with that we both knew was potentially hazardous to me to work with / using. We both know that is wrong & they become liable.
In the same way - putting me with Someone who chooses not to vaccinate is no different.
The boss has a duty of care to me as well as every other employees freedom of choice.

@Jangle33

In a word yes. It’s perfectly reasonable for employers (particularly in the healthcare sector) to require staff to have the vaccine.

There’s a lot of discussions on this and may well be legal to be sacked if he refuses, especially on the I’m not sure grounds! I wouldn’t want him on my staff.

It may well be legal on health and safety grounds

@cms1972

I work in dentistry and it is required to have been vaccinated against Hep B. What's the difference? If you don't want the vaccine, don't work in healthcare

Dear Alfaix

I too work in healthcare and I don’t want the Covid vaccine, but I’ve been vaccinated against Hep B.

The difference is: that the Hep B vaccination has been around for years with no ill effects and I can see that any negative health impact of the Hep B vaccine is negligible compared with the impact of contracting Hep B.

Whereas the Covid vaccine is a new development and therefore I currently feel more at risk from the Covid vaccine that I do from catching Covid. In particular as Covid is an illness that you can apparently have without even knowing you’ve got it (unlike Hep B).

So I am similar to OP’s partner, I had rather wait and see what happens with this unprecedented situation before queuing up to have a new vaccine injected into my arm.

To all those saying that “millions” of people have now had the vaccine. One person or millions, it makes no difference. It just means that any as yet unknown iatrogenic effects of a Covid vaccine will impact on millions of people, not one person.

Spot on. Totally agree with every thing you have said!!!

OP, I don't they can do that bit they may try to make his life harder. Tell him to contact citizens advice bureau. I think they can send a letter of warning to his employer if they are discriminating against him.

Covid vaccines are not ‘rushed’ ffs. They’ve been through the same approval process as any other vaccine.

How long are you prepared to wait, in lockdown, before you’re convinced?

It’s selfish not to have the vaccine. It’s not about one person it’s about our whole community and the vulnerable in it.

Your husband should find a new job where he is not expected to put other people first.

I’m not sure why people don’t seem to be understanding that you can have the vaccine and STILL transmit the virus so him having it would only protect him and no one else. It’s looking like any protection will only last a few months and top up jabs will be needed anyway. What I suspect will happen is that we will live with it like we do flu and the elderly and vulnerable will be offered a yearly vaccine.
It’s quite clearly discrimination if they don’t give him shifts for this reason alone.

Puzzledandpissedoff, Black and Asian but also "young". Some of the young ones haven't caught up with the info on the vaccine reducing transmission so think it's their own risk only. Some are worried "because I've heard it reduces fertility and I want to start a family" so tackling that concern would improve uptake.

TheKeatingFive - does anyone really think that way? "I better have the vaccine or lockdown will be longer"

Whereas "I better have the vaccine or I can't fly to Greece" sounds much more likely to influence our younger staff.

The Guardian is reporting:
Greece is in “technical” talks with the UK over allowing Britons carrying a vaccine passport to travel to its tourist hotspots from May despite concerns in Brussels and other EU capitals.

Maybe the care companies should start subsidising holidays to Greece. Let's stop telling people off because it doesn't actually work and start coming up with ideas that influence behaviour in the real world.

@FedUpAtHomeTroels

I don't think they can do that if he has contracted hours, I know we have two staff who flat our refused to get vaccinated, made up all sorts of reasons, and keep talking about all the conspiracy theories. So work has furloughed them on their base hours until all this gets sorted out.

How is it going to be sorted out if they are getting paid 80% of their wages to sit on their arse and do fuck all. They won’t be in a rush will they!

Doesn’t sound a genuine reason for furlough. Why should the taxpayer be paying for this?

It’s selfish to expect another person to inject themselves with poison, especially as he can still get and transmit the virus. Maybe do some independent research that isn’t funded by Bill depopulation Gates.

It’s quite clearly discrimination if they don’t give him shifts for this reason alone.

Discrimination on what basis?

If you work in a lab it is expected that you have certain vaccinations as part of your job contract, even if you're not working with those diseases. I suspect certain jobs will say you need to have this vaccine as a pre-requisite.

@NicolaC17

It’s selfish to expect another person to inject themselves with poison, especially as he can still get and transmit the virus. Maybe do some independent research that isn’t funded by Bill depopulation Gates.

Presumably you won’t be taking advantage of the freedoms that will be achieved by others taking the vaccine? After all, it would be incredibly selfish to benefit from other people being injected with ‘poison.’ FYI YouTube videos & Facebook are not research

@TheKeatingFive

Covid vaccines are not ‘rushed’ ffs. They’ve been through the same approval process as any other vaccine.

How long are you prepared to wait, in lockdown, before you’re convinced?

I think that compared to the hepatitis B vaccine, the Covid ones have been rushed, as helpfully pointed out yesterday by @1dayatatime:

Well one difference does spring to mind in that the Hep B vaccine by Blumberg and Hilleman took from 1963 to 1981 to produce an approved vaccine followed by a safer improved vaccine being approved in 1986, with Blumberg being awarded a Nobel prize for his work. Whereas a Covid vaccine was produced and approved in under 12 months.

It has been explained several times why Covid vaccines have been produced more quickly than others. Why does this equate to them being “rushed”? Also I don’t know if anyone knows but there’s a pandemic on killing loads of people and trashing societies and economies, why would a solution for that being “rushed” be a bad thing?

What is he waiting for? Does he have specific criteria or end point? How will he know when it’s safe enough for him?

One of the key questions is how long has he worked for his employer? If it’s less than 2 years, if not he has very few rights.

I can envisage families of vulnerable people insisting that the care givers are vaccinated

The vulnerable will have been vaccinated, so what's the point?

I have the strong impression that the minority siding with op are actually anti vaccers perhaps for differing reasons. We all agree you should do what you want with your body but please do not attend sick and vulnerable people with that attitude.