Vaccine rollout in Europe

[Baileysforchristmas]

The vaccine rollout in Europe is turning into a complete disaster.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/19/german-politicians-counter-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-scepticism-with-show-of-support

Except it doesn't have dubious efficacy, or it would not have been approved by the EMA. What it has is limited data.

The early results out of Scotland are "very encouraging".

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n523

@Sgtmajormummy

Oh dear, ineffective journalism from the Guardian, of all people. Of course if you’re vaccinating majority 80+ year olds you’re not going to use a vaccine with dubious efficacy on that age group...

No! That's the emotive, kneejerk misinformation, not the hard facts, or even the usual way of looking at vaccines.

It is not that there is data showing the vaccine to be ineffective in the elderly, it’s that there is not enough evidence to show that it is effective in this age group.

The real question is an ethical one, not a scientific one: what standard of evidence do we need to establish the efficacy of a vaccine before approving it for use in a pandemic?

All the absolutist statements that say one is better or worse than the other are , currently, just opinions. Some based on the little extant data that exists, others from headline grabbing journalists who don't understand the former at all!

AZ not being widely used yet in Belgium as they are still only vaccinating the elderly and healthcare workers. Belgium hasn't licensed AZ for the over 55s yet.

Of course if you’re vaccinating majority 80+ year olds you’re not going to use a vaccine with dubious efficacy on that age group...

@Sgtmajormummy stop spreading misinformation and go educate yourself.

AZ not being widely used yet in Belgium as they are still only vaccinating the elderly and healthcare workers. Belgium hasn't licensed AZ for the over 55s yet.

Belgian over 65s won’t get their first dose until late March now according to this:

www.brusselstimes.com/news/156504/gigantic-problem-belgiums-vaccination-campaign-further-delayed/

@Dongdingdong
What exactly is your point? To me it seems we’re saying the same thing... “dubious efficacy on that age group” means the age group didn’t have enough data collected and is awaiting further conclusive proof. Do you agree?

[quote Sgtmajormummy]@Dongdingdong
What exactly is your point? To me it seems we’re saying the same thing... “dubious efficacy on that age group” means the age group didn’t have enough data collected and is awaiting further conclusive proof. Do you agree?[/quote]
No! The word dubious is a negative one, implies deceit. Incomplete is properly descriptive!

Said upthread Yes Europe, especially Germany have always been very particular about thorough scientific evidence and backing,
How does that fit with their strong and pervasive use and belief in homeopathy?

@lighteincastlewindow

It could also be Plazebo effect

Oh FFS it's called a placebo effect Op. Stop talking, have you read the articles you post.

The EU don't need the AstraZeneca vaccine. The US don't either. Every country in Europe has more people completely vaccinated per capita than the UK. And let's face it, the UK did a great job contract wise and have enough contracted to vaccinate the population 4 times over. Let's see what happens the spares.You sound very young, posting links in lieu of speaking for yourself.

I suspect you're doing this to tease, but just in case you really don't get it:

You can either:

(a) Vaccinate your dad and yourself. Twice each. Or

(b) Vaccinate the whole street, once, to 90% efficacy. (Roughly similar to two shots).

You're saying you'd go for (a). Which is fine....But what if it's not your family that gets the two-shots each, but someone a few doors down? Wouldn't be crowing then, would you?

@Dongdingdong worrying about Brussels, it’s so frustrating when Germany have 1.6 million doses they don’t want to use. I hope they hurry up and sort this out before Autumn hits Europe, this is a great time to get everyone vaccinated before the weather turns.

The media are trying to backpedal on AZ now in Germany & Austria because they realised their greed at click-baiting with negative headlines was a total disaster. However it's not really working because people are labelling all the positive news as propaganda and assuming the government are paying for it (who knows, which they might be but it doesn't make any difference now anyway).

The new strategy is to introduce some type of Freedom Pass for those vaccinated so you can spare the hassle of constantly getting tested before going to the hairdressers, beautician and presumably restaurants and gyms once they reopen. I think that has a good chance of succeeding because people are so tired and annoyed about the restrictions that many will happily get AZ if it means they can freely travel and enjoy leisure activities again.

@Sgtmajormummy

The two phrases are very different. “Dubious efficacy” means “probably isn’t effective”. Which is very different from “not enough data to know how efficacious it is yet”. The former is negative, the latter is neutral.

This is where Macron got it wrong too (intentionally or not, no one knows).

And now Hungary has started vaccinating with the Chinese vaccine which hasn’t been signed off by EMA

www.politico.eu/article/hungary-viktor-orban-inoculated-with-chinese-vaccine-coronavirus/

@Defaultname Maybe you could explain that to Ursula Von der Leyen, who is quoted in the Guardian a few days ago saying this:

“In Italy, with a population similar to that of Great Britain, twice as many citizens received full vaccination protection with the second dose as in the UK.”

UvdL needs to take a step back. This isn't a competition and every time she makes such a statement she only adds to the tension.

[quote Dongdingdong]@Defaultname Maybe you could explain that to Ursula Von der Leyen, who is quoted in the Guardian a few days ago saying this:

“In Italy, with a population similar to that of Great Britain, twice as many citizens received full vaccination protection with the second dose as in the UK.”[/quote]
For a minute there, I thought you were saying that Italy had vaccinated twice as many people as Britain had done!

Not up-to-date, but " As of February 25, 2021, there had been almost four million COVID-19 vaccine doses administered in Italy.".

That's lower than Britain, isn't it, rather than higher? Or are you saying that single-vaccinations count for zero/nowt/nada? If the latter, why are you saying it?

As reported 21st February...

...in a cabinet meeting on Monday, the newly appointed Italian government will follow the example of Boris Johnson’s government and proceed with a mass vaccination using all available doses, without setting aside some of the vaccines for second shots.

So far, more than 17 million people have been inoculated in the U.K., around 30% of the adult population, making Britain a world leader in Covid vaccinations, compared with about 3.5 million in Italy.

On Saturday, Italy’s regional governors asked the government to increase efforts to find more vaccine doses....

I think many EU countries are going to make a massive u turn on the vaccine rollout but the problem now is will the EU citizens believe what there told? Vaccine passports would help as everyone just wants there freedom back, let’s see what happens. I want to visit Paris in July, Netherlands, Spain and Greece in August, fingers crossed it gets sorted.

[quote Dongdingdong]@Defaultname Maybe you could explain that to Ursula Von der Leyen, who is quoted in the Guardian a few days ago saying this:

“In Italy, with a population similar to that of Great Britain, twice as many citizens received full vaccination protection with the second dose as in the UK.”[/quote]
Politicians - like magicians - are very good at saying, "Don't look at that, look at this..."

Particularly when they're under pressure, as UvdL is.

The simple reality is I would much, much rather be in a country where a third of the population have had one dose, than one where 5% have had two. And my parents are much better off having had one dose a month ago, than the zero doses they would have had were they living in Italy.

My parents, MIL and husband have all had their first jab, second jab due soon, it is such a relief that the vulnerable in my family are nearly 100% less likely to be really ill and end up in hospital because of coronvirus.

[quote Dongdingdong]@Defaultname Maybe you could explain that to Ursula Von der Leyen, who is quoted in the Guardian a few days ago saying this:

“In Italy, with a population similar to that of Great Britain, twice as many citizens received full vaccination protection with the second dose as in the UK.”[/quote]
Imagine you have 200 people and 200 doses. You know that 1 dose is 60% effective and 2 doses are 95% effective.

If you give 2 doses to 100 people you get 95 people who are protected and 105 who are still vulnerable.

If you give 1 dose to 200 people you get 120 people who are protected and 80 who are still vulnerable.

So while 2 doses are ideal, until you have 2 doses for everybody, a 1 dose strategy protects more.

Ursula FondOfLying is just trying to spin her appalling mismanagement.

@TalbotAMan
So while 2 doses are ideal, until you have 2 doses for everybody, a 1 dose strategy protects more.

Or you could end up giving everybody partial immunity and causing the emergence of new vaccine resistant strains.
There are still UK scientists (along with the majority of scientists in the rest of the world) who think it's better to stick to the original schedule for Pfizer.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00455-4/fulltext#%20
We have no concerns regarding the second dose of AZD1222 at 12 weeks, as this is supported by evidence. However, if escape variants arise due to sub-optimal dosing with BNT162b2, they will likely be resistant to other vaccines that target the same viral spike protein.
In conclusion, we would strongly recommend that the UK Government reverts to the two doses in a 3-week schedule (94% efficacy) for BNT162b2; or, as recently supported by WHO and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, adopt no more than a 6-week delay to the second dose “in exceptional circumstances”

@Guinan

Do the authors say which 17 million people they think should be left unprotected while the first batch are getting their 17 million second doses?

There are questions about Pfizer effectiveness data coming through from Italy.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/28/pfizer-vaccine-less-effective-obesity-study

the results from Scotland, after a single dose, are remarkably good.

Scotland concentrated resources on the oldest citizens, prioritising those in care homes.

"dubious efficacy" is the opposite of what I see.

ft.com

"According to the research, conducted by the universities of Edinburgh and Strathclyde and Public Health Scotland, the chance of hospitalisation from four to six weeks after vaccination was 85 per cent lower after receiving one shot of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine and 94 per cent lower after one shot of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine. 

The scientists said their findings were applicable to other countries using the two vaccines but the data were not robust enough to compare the two jabs’ efficacy head to head."

the results from Scotland, after a single dose, are remarkably good.

Scotland concentrated resources on the oldest citizens, prioritising those in care homes.

here

www.ft.com/content/20576254-422b-4545-91ab-20b4d005bbf3