The government is about to tell you that schools are safe

[noblegiraffe]

It's being reported that the government are about to embark on a two week PR campaign claiming that schools are safe. We've already seen hints of it in that Warwick report that was widely misreported as showing schools don't fuel community transmission (majorly pissing off the author who advocates a cautious return to schools).

The ONS random sampling survey graphs released today are amazing. They show a huge reduction in the infection rates due to lockdown, but the most incredible reduction is in the infection rate of secondary school children. They've gone from being the most infected subset of the population by far, to the 2nd least (behind 70+). It's clear that despite arguments that secondary kids were catching covid out of school (sleepovers, hanging around in parks etc), this just isn't true and the lack of mitigation measures in secondary schools allowed covid to run riot.

We can't re-open in the same way as in September. That would be madness. I know that people will say that it's fine, vulnerable people are being vaccinated and kids don't get it badly BUT what is not acknowledged is that kids aren't being vaccinated, a lot of their teachers won't be by March 8th, nor their parents and so we still need to keep infection levels down. In addition, rampant covid is incredibly disruptive to education. Teachers off for weeks, kids off isolating, some kids in, some kids out...Sept to Dec was a mess that we should be trying our best to avoid repeating. Vaccinations don't address that issue at all.

Community levels are low, but then they were low in September. Pubs, restaurants and non-essential shops are shut now, but we want to be able to open them. We cannot rely on community levels remaining low to stop covid getting into schools and proliferating.

We need to be careful, because certainly secondary schools aren't safe to re-open in a Big Bang gung-ho way that some are advocating, particularly with a more transmissible variant in circulation. Remember to the week before Christmas when school attendance plummeted in Kent and London? In one LA, secondary attendance was at 17%. And yet the DfE decided to threaten schools that wanted to close early to stop the spread with legal action. The schools were right, and the DfE was wrong. Gavin Williamson can't be trusted to have sensible conversations about safety, he's more interested in bully-boy tactics and setting himself up in opposition to teachers and schools.

What can be done? I think there is room to open schools in some way on March 8th. My personal preference (and I'm no spokesperson for teachers here, other opinions will vary) would be primaries back and exam years back for three weeks, then Easter can be used to examine the impact of the full primary re-opening . I'm not sure that school is such a major factor in transmission at primary as it is at secondary for various reasons, however I'm sure that my primary colleagues have their own ideas about what needs to be done there. If full primary re-opening looks untenable, then I would prefer rotas to only certain year groups in. Some school for all pupils would be better than all school for some pupils as we had last year.

Secondary is a different kettle of fish and should be treated separately. Secondaries were a massive risk for transmission. The word 'bubble' should never be used in reference to secondary schools again, as 'bubble' means a group of people who all have to isolate if one of them catches covid, which went in the bin in secondary around the end of September. There are some easy wins in secondary -
Masks in classrooms would be easy and cheap to implement. Exemptions would apply and clear ones could be provided where necessary for lip reading.
A national programme to improve ventilation.
Testing and isolation of any contacts where positive cases are found to flush out asymptomatic pupils (PCR not LFT).
Moving quickly to remote learning where there are outbreaks instead of trying to keep year groups in and schools open as covid works its way through - the attendance just before Christmas in some schools meant kids would have been better served educationally if they were all at home.

Home LFT testing of kids - I'm not convinced tbh, maybe in addition to above measures, but certainly not instead of them.

So if the government messaging is as it has been: schools are safe and no additional measures to contain the spread in secondary are needed then they are lying and our kids deserve a more consistent and sustainable education than they got from September.

Fingers crossed they are more sensible than we have previously seen.

@SPRINGTIMEBLUEBELLS nope not counted in group 6. Haven't had steroid tablets for 2 years. Teachers aren't being prioritised here. Just started the over 65s in my area

@Waxonwaxoff0

What PPE do supermarket staff have? They only have masks.

Yes, and shoppers also wear masks.

Please can i have the same? I would like to be allowed to wear a mask, and would if possible like my pupils to do the same, at least if I am working close to them.

[quote mumsneedwine]@siestalady on the basis that the current biggest range of ICU patients is 30-50 years old. You know, teacher and parent aged.[/quote]
Is it? Any links? I don't think it is.

@Wnikat

Vulnerable teachers have been vaccinated.

I'm a vulnerable teacher & I have not been vaccinated. CEV teachers should have been. But not just vulnerable. I should, hopefully, get my vaccine in March, but will still have the 3 weeks afterwards before it takes effect

“I am not willing for the children of this country to be thrown under the bus any longer. Vaccinate the teachers, fine. Wear masks, fine but it is beyond selfish of adults to deprive children of education and social development.“

I so agree with this.

In the summer barely 1/3 of my DS class returned. If they had all returned he would have been taught for 3 days every 2 weeks. This was with only 3 year groups in. You can't rota all year groups to have small classes, say 10 to 15 in a class and still have keyworker children in all the time. There simply aren't enough teachers. If you are going to send primaries back in with 30 in a class you might as well send all pupils back in full time.

There was an article in the Telegraph a week or 2 back suggesting that scientific advisers had told the Government that if we came out of lockdown too quickly, and there was high viral transmission, then there was the possibility of high morbidity and some mortality in some vulnerable people.

• people who cannot be vaccinated or choose not to be, for whatever reason
• vulnerable people who don't realise they are vulnerable (undiagnosed health condition, for example)
• ECV vaccinated people who might still get infected (as not 100% effective against infection) and then get complications. We haven't seen a lot of this so far but there would be potential for um finding out more if there were widespread community infections.

And of course although lots of people have had 1 dose now, not many people have had a second vaccination yet, so not full protection.

The article suggested that the next wave has the potential for even higher mortality than previous waves.

I linked to it on these boards and then it seemed to vanish off the Telegraph website.

In the time we returned last year , at my school I work in we had 1 case in that whole time in a school of over 1000 pupils

Schools are safe and kids need to get back ASAP.

Lots of CV staff not vaccinated yet. No over 50s teachers not CV vaccinated yet.
If people want schools open, and staff to be in them, then they need to support better (any) safety measures. Masks, screens, social distancing, windows that open, and a nice vaccine in my arm. I hate remote teaching and miss the kids but this is my life. I have my own kids and I'd like to be here with them a bit longer. At 53 I'm known to have higher risk, that's why we are a category ! And if I need to resign (again) then I will.

@Indoctro lucky you. We've had 3 dead staff members and several with long term health issues now. Be careful what you say as we were you mid November. Feeling smug and safe.

My workplace (factory) has had more cases than DS's school. 19 compared to 2.

Good about bloody time our children are back in school - they have suffered long enough it is about time we started living with this virus.

Nothing inside and crowded is safe.
I hope secondaries aren't back until after Easter. I might even have my first vaccination by then..

@herecomesthsun

There was an article in the Telegraph a week or 2 back suggesting that scientific advisers had told the Government that if we came out of lockdown too quickly, and there was high viral transmission, then there was the possibility of high morbidity and some mortality in some vulnerable people.

• people who cannot be vaccinated or choose not to be, for whatever reason
• vulnerable people who don't realise they are vulnerable (undiagnosed health condition, for example)
• ECV vaccinated people who might still get infected (as not 100% effective against infection) and then get complications. We haven't seen a lot of this so far but there would be potential for um finding out more if there were widespread community infections.

And of course although lots of people have had 1 dose now, not many people have had a second vaccination yet, so not full protection.

The article suggested that the next wave has the potential for even higher mortality than previous waves.

I linked to it on these boards and then it seemed to vanish off the Telegraph website.

I think j saw it, saying he's been warned it could push R over one?

Whereas giraffe really does put a klaxon out.

Nearly 200 posts, plenty of people agreeing that caution is needed and I’ve not put any klaxon out. Maybe lots of people agree with me and you just don’t like it.

"Thank god nurses, doctors, supermarket workers, care workers, factory workers, delivery drivers don't all behave the same way"

Behave the same way as....? Care to finish that statement? And justify it?

@caramac04 You sound so lovely! Your lucky lucky grandchildren. Our school used to be brilliant at getting in members of the community to help with listening to the younger children read but the new head stopped it. I thought it was a real shame as it was great for community/school relations and also for those children who don't have a patient/ available ear at home.

Not yet. I’m not sure at what stage you out it out last time... maybe when the thread starts to turn?

If all schools in England reopen fully on March 8th, as has been rumoured, it's almost like Boris is determined to get in there before Nicola Sturgeon

Anyway, if schools are safe, so is the House of Commons. Let's get MPs back to work. #UsForMPs

I'm older than the majority of teachers at my dc's secondary school.

I would rather see those teachers vaccinated before I am, plus regulations requiring masks to be worn in classrooms. I have to wear one just to buy milk at the local mini market. Why then don't 30 kids + teacher sharing a low ceilinged classroom for up to an hour have to do likewise ?

There are plenty of people in my age group who can and are working from home quite efficiently enough to satisfy our employers/clients/business associates. I'd happily remain unvaccinated a little while longer than the target for my age bracket (even it it mean't forgoing a holiday again this year) to enable teachers to be vaccinated ahead of me.

I realise however that this does nothing to stop the transmission of Covid from household to household by kids mixing at schools. on that front, I can think of at least 3 venues which would enable the nearby infants school to reduce mixing. Ditto the junior school. The dc's massive comprehensive might be more of a challenge but they seem reluctant to use the substantial hall for extra class space or the adjacent sports centre either. There's indoor sports facilities all around (with very high ceilings so greater volume of air circulation) being seriously under utilised/shut.

People who claim their school only had a couple of cases were testing everyone every few days yes ?

Secondary teacher here (teaching Year 7 through to Year 13) with a KS1 Primary aged child.

I want our government to do everything in their power to keep schools open as much as possible, rather than say ‘open to all’ and then move on and hope for the best.

Unlike those who say their schools had no cases Sept to Dec and experienced no self isolations, I experienced a month’s worth of self isolation for my DD (not being able to even leave the house is horrendous for children) and experienced having ‘close contacts’ sent home mid lesson and having to half teach those in school and at home at the same time and caught Covid myself (and my child) in the process. Therefore, I would not wish this experience on anyone and would hope no one would and would be happy to do what they can in order to achieve that across the board.

And for anyone thinking that this isn’t already happening in the schools currently open to keyworker/critical worker and vulnerable children has their head in the sand. My own child’s primary school last half term had all of nursery, all of Year 1 and all of Year 5 self isolating at one point. Covid is still there.

[quote NaughtipussMaximus]@herecomesthsun yes you have me banged to rights. Well done. I joined MN seven years ago with just this aim in mind. I’ve been playing the long game.

Thing is, you lose all credibility when you dismiss everyone who disagrees with you on these threads as US4Them drones, with zero evidence. Whereas giraffe really does put a klaxon out. You need to understand that there really are just thousands of parents on mumsnet who disagree with you - whereas you just have your little gang who egg each other one in the staffroom to the extent that MNHQ have to tell you to STFU.[/quote]
I never said you were a member of Us4Them, just that loads of mindless drones parrotting the same stuff had suddenly joined the thread. Any klaxon going is probably a U4T one. You can slot yourself in with them if you care to, it's up to you.

I don't have a gang and I am not on the staffroom board. I don't even know where it is. I am not a teacher.

However, there are many many people who agree with me that it is a bit soon for schools to be fully back. Even the government is showing unusual caution for them, thank God. Let's hope that there is an outbreak of common sense, of the variety "Let's be careful not to spread the new variants through the schools to mutate further, while we get on and vaccinate more people".

@megletsecond

People who claim their school only had a couple of cases were testing everyone every few days yes ?

My kids school has had 1 case (in a teacher) and not a single other. All teachers were being tested twice weekly by a private lab doing a study. So in my experience, exactly this.