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The government is about to tell you that schools are safe

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2021 14:07

It's being reported that the government are about to embark on a two week PR campaign claiming that schools are safe. We've already seen hints of it in that Warwick report that was widely misreported as showing schools don't fuel community transmission (majorly pissing off the author who advocates a cautious return to schools).

The ONS random sampling survey graphs released today are amazing. They show a huge reduction in the infection rates due to lockdown, but the most incredible reduction is in the infection rate of secondary school children. They've gone from being the most infected subset of the population by far, to the 2nd least (behind 70+). It's clear that despite arguments that secondary kids were catching covid out of school (sleepovers, hanging around in parks etc), this just isn't true and the lack of mitigation measures in secondary schools allowed covid to run riot.

We can't re-open in the same way as in September. That would be madness. I know that people will say that it's fine, vulnerable people are being vaccinated and kids don't get it badly BUT what is not acknowledged is that kids aren't being vaccinated, a lot of their teachers won't be by March 8th, nor their parents and so we still need to keep infection levels down. In addition, rampant covid is incredibly disruptive to education. Teachers off for weeks, kids off isolating, some kids in, some kids out...Sept to Dec was a mess that we should be trying our best to avoid repeating. Vaccinations don't address that issue at all.

Community levels are low, but then they were low in September. Pubs, restaurants and non-essential shops are shut now, but we want to be able to open them. We cannot rely on community levels remaining low to stop covid getting into schools and proliferating.

We need to be careful, because certainly secondary schools aren't safe to re-open in a Big Bang gung-ho way that some are advocating, particularly with a more transmissible variant in circulation. Remember to the week before Christmas when school attendance plummeted in Kent and London? In one LA, secondary attendance was at 17%. And yet the DfE decided to threaten schools that wanted to close early to stop the spread with legal action. The schools were right, and the DfE was wrong. Gavin Williamson can't be trusted to have sensible conversations about safety, he's more interested in bully-boy tactics and setting himself up in opposition to teachers and schools.

What can be done? I think there is room to open schools in some way on March 8th. My personal preference (and I'm no spokesperson for teachers here, other opinions will vary) would be primaries back and exam years back for three weeks, then Easter can be used to examine the impact of the full primary re-opening . I'm not sure that school is such a major factor in transmission at primary as it is at secondary for various reasons, however I'm sure that my primary colleagues have their own ideas about what needs to be done there. If full primary re-opening looks untenable, then I would prefer rotas to only certain year groups in. Some school for all pupils would be better than all school for some pupils as we had last year.

Secondary is a different kettle of fish and should be treated separately. Secondaries were a massive risk for transmission. The word 'bubble' should never be used in reference to secondary schools again, as 'bubble' means a group of people who all have to isolate if one of them catches covid, which went in the bin in secondary around the end of September. There are some easy wins in secondary -
Masks in classrooms would be easy and cheap to implement. Exemptions would apply and clear ones could be provided where necessary for lip reading.
A national programme to improve ventilation.
Testing and isolation of any contacts where positive cases are found to flush out asymptomatic pupils (PCR not LFT).
Moving quickly to remote learning where there are outbreaks instead of trying to keep year groups in and schools open as covid works its way through - the attendance just before Christmas in some schools meant kids would have been better served educationally if they were all at home.

Home LFT testing of kids - I'm not convinced tbh, maybe in addition to above measures, but certainly not instead of them.

So if the government messaging is as it has been: schools are safe and no additional measures to contain the spread in secondary are needed then they are lying and our kids deserve a more consistent and sustainable education than they got from September.

Fingers crossed they are more sensible than we have previously seen.

The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
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8
herecomesthsun · 19/02/2021 21:22

@noblegiraffe

A pp was saying something about how a lot of the people dying/in hospital in younger age groups were obese.

When they were saying it was elderly people it was all 'they've lived their lives, they'd be dead soon anyway'. What's the reason for not caring if obese people end up in hospital/dying? They haven't lived their lives and wouldn't be dead soon anyway, but it is written as if 'oh well, they're obese so they don't matter'.

Yep

they don't really matter, they're old, they'd die anyhow sort of soonish

they don't really matter, they're fat, it's their own fault, blame them

they don't really matter they're BAME/ poor/ learning disabled/not me...

Piggywaspushed · 19/02/2021 21:22

Actually, CV group 6. This is DH 's group herc.

HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 21:24

I'm really confused by CEV and CV now! Sibling CV and not been offered yet and told to wait. CEV parent done.

Dementedswan · 19/02/2021 21:26

High blood pressure and associated problems on the heart are not in group 6 .I'm 45, have had high BP since early 20's investigations revealed the cause because of an enlarged heart. I'm on medication, BP still above normal, plus psoriasis and meds for that... I'm group 10.

Dh is 44 and has diabetes he was first to be vaccinated in group 6 on Wednesday.

My anxiety has spiralled, actually no... its been replaced by severe depression, I've been put ones today to try and combat that.

As a profoundly deaf person who can't communicate via zoom, telephone etc, with health conditions that were originally on the list. I can honestly say. Enough is enough. I'm done

TheHoneyBadger · 19/02/2021 21:27

It's a pretty narrow list for CV. Has anyone seen 'severe mental illness' clarified anywhere? I can't find any clarification of what severe is and who will decide that.

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 21:28

Probably the same place as many other people leopard

People will say they've been to a supermarket but not when they've been somewhere they shouldn't have.

They also only say where they've been and not where family members who may have given it to them have been.

If I catch it I'd say I've been in school or supermarket or my support bubbles house.

What I wouldn't say is where her and her family have been, where all my pupils and there families have been.

I'm not denying lots of people are catching it in supermarkets. But the reason the figure is 50% is because there not many other places it can be caught legally!

When everything is open you get a much better picture of where it's transmitted.

leopardspotsdotdotdot · 19/02/2021 21:29

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

6% totally. What about up north? Show me that and rise in infections? Where some areas are 50% plus attendance Very very few secondary schools are anywhere near 50% attendance.

I don't even know what you're on about up north.

Yes you’re right, I was talking about primary attendance being high up north. Makes no odds anyhow, as secondary aren’t distancing anyhow in my personal view - every where I go there are teenagers in groups. Unless they were a sextuplet, then I think they’re mostly ignoring guidelines.

Secondary in my area are required to wear masks though.

LilyPond2 · 19/02/2021 21:31

A look at the government's own interactive map with a detailed breakdown of number of Covid cases in England shows a very mixed picture. It is madness to pursue a policy of the same school opening policy across England when the picture is so mixed. A tier system for opening schools according to local infection rates could actually work reasonably well. The problem with the tier system generally has been that people will travel across tiers from high infection areas where (say) pubs are shut to lower infection areas where businesses have been allowed to stay open. With schools you don't have that problem, given that parents can't simply send their child to a different school in a lower infection area.

MrsHerculePoirot · 19/02/2021 21:31
CEV is group 4.

CV is group 6.

Some places are doing groups 5&6 together I think - but it is wildly varying from area to area. I am CV and have been done (first jab) friends in other parts of the country who are CV haven’t all yet been offered so they have started in some areas but not all. Saying ‘the vulnerable’ have all been vaccinated, as has been pointed out many times but various posters isn’t true. I suspect if we did delay a full Big Bang going back on 8th March that we will have got through most of group 6 having their first jab... I don’t know that makes a difference as at my school it was transmission between kids and then to their families that was the biggest issue but anyway!

TheHoneyBadger · 19/02/2021 21:32

I'm not seeing teens hanging out at all here.

None the less a few teens in an outdoor space is hardly the same is 1000+ crammed into a building with poor ventilation, shared equipment, shared toilets etc. I always find it strange that people can't see the difference.

HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 21:32

Makes no odds anyhow, as secondary aren’t distancing anyhow in my personal view

I've seen a few kids out and about together. But nowhere have I seen 32 in an unventilated, 48metre squared space with no/few masks.

Ours wore masks in corridors, not in classrooms.

KarenMarlow3 · 19/02/2021 21:32

I would love to see an army of vaccinated oldies coming to help catch up kids education
I am vaccinated oldie, a retired teacher with a granddaughter in the local state school. There is nothing I'd like better than to help children catch up. But I doubt very much that anyone's going to ask me.

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 21:32

@TheHoneyBadger

It's a pretty narrow list for CV. Has anyone seen 'severe mental illness' clarified anywhere? I can't find any clarification of what severe is and who will decide that.
Not classified or clarified but I've heard Prof Whitty reference bi polar and schizophrenia when discussing severe mental illness.

But then I keep reading about neurological conditions. Then they mention MS, CP, MND, Parkinson's. They never mention hereditary spastic paraplegia which has symptoms of all 4 and is a degenerative neurological condition. And I can't get any medical person to clarify if that group 6 or not and if not why not when the conditions very similar are?

leopardspotsdotdotdot · 19/02/2021 21:33

@itsgettingwierd

Probably the same place as many other people leopard

People will say they've been to a supermarket but not when they've been somewhere they shouldn't have.

They also only say where they've been and not where family members who may have given it to them have been.

If I catch it I'd say I've been in school or supermarket or my support bubbles house.

What I wouldn't say is where her and her family have been, where all my pupils and there families have been.

I'm not denying lots of people are catching it in supermarkets. But the reason the figure is 50% is because there not many other places it can be caught legally!

When everything is open you get a much better picture of where it's transmitted.

Honestly, look at the odds - if the main place you go weekly with several hundred people, vs breaking the rules to chat to a friend in person, I think you’ll find the packaging, staff, air your breathing, trolley you’re touching has a way bigger chance of infecting you.
HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 21:33

Thanks MrsHP, my gin addled eyes were struggling Grin

leopardspotsdotdotdot · 19/02/2021 21:34

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

Makes no odds anyhow, as secondary aren’t distancing anyhow in my personal view

I've seen a few kids out and about together. But nowhere have I seen 32 in an unventilated, 48metre squared space with no/few masks.

Ours wore masks in corridors, not in classrooms.

I saw 7 passing a beer between them in the park earlier. Spittal vs air 😂
HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 21:34

if the main place you go weekly with several hundred people, vs breaking the rules to chat to a friend in person,

Meeting a friend indoors is much more of a risk, prolonged contact in the same air.

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 21:35

@TheHoneyBadger

I'm not seeing teens hanging out at all here.

None the less a few teens in an outdoor space is hardly the same is 1000+ crammed into a building with poor ventilation, shared equipment, shared toilets etc. I always find it strange that people can't see the difference.

I see a few groups all hugging and snogging each other!

But it's groups of 10 and very few of those and always outside (although the kidding probably eradicates that mitigation!).

That's what I see when moving around an area with 4 large secondary schools in it.

Obviously I accept I don't go everywhere where they could be but it's usually beach, fields and woods they hang out at rather than the streets or the shopping outlet areas where the open shops are. (Because usually the police are there and move them on!)

LilyPond2 · 19/02/2021 21:35

I've seen a few kids out and about together. But nowhere have I seen 32 in an unventilated, 48metre squared space with no/few masks.

Exactly this.

HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 21:35

7 compared to the 1000 when they're in school though. Really can't understand how you can't see the difference....

(unless you're being deliberately goady)

leopardspotsdotdotdot · 19/02/2021 21:36

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

if the main place you go weekly with several hundred people, vs breaking the rules to chat to a friend in person,

Meeting a friend indoors is much more of a risk, prolonged contact in the same air.

Bollox! Not that I’m doing that. Did you not see ice cream infected last month?!
MrsHerculePoirot · 19/02/2021 21:37

I’ve been watching the groups carefully as knew I was CV!

Re the teens I’ve seen groups of maybe up to four - outside walking and talking. I think we all know it’s safer to be outside in a group of four than mixing in indoor, poorly ventilated spaces with maybe 240 others a day (no masks for majority of that time). Not to mention transport to and from that crowded place....

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 21:38

Leopard tbh intend to go to supermarket after school as it's quietest then. Monday 4pm there's never more than 20 people in Aldi!

I have contact with more people in school and when you consider it's kids with 2 WOH parents probably much more in school!

But yes if asked those are the 2 places I've been. So even I have a 50% chance of catching it in a supermarket Grin

leopardspotsdotdotdot · 19/02/2021 21:38

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

7 compared to the 1000 when they're in school though. Really can't understand how you can't see the difference....

(unless you're being deliberately goady)

Sharing a beer or a spliff. Spit vs air
HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 21:38

Of course it's riskier. You're inside in a small space with an infected person, of course you're more likely to get it than brushing past an infected person at a supermarket.

I'm not sharing ice cream with people in a supermarket...