The government is about to tell you that schools are safe

[noblegiraffe]

It's being reported that the government are about to embark on a two week PR campaign claiming that schools are safe. We've already seen hints of it in that Warwick report that was widely misreported as showing schools don't fuel community transmission (majorly pissing off the author who advocates a cautious return to schools).

The ONS random sampling survey graphs released today are amazing. They show a huge reduction in the infection rates due to lockdown, but the most incredible reduction is in the infection rate of secondary school children. They've gone from being the most infected subset of the population by far, to the 2nd least (behind 70+). It's clear that despite arguments that secondary kids were catching covid out of school (sleepovers, hanging around in parks etc), this just isn't true and the lack of mitigation measures in secondary schools allowed covid to run riot.

We can't re-open in the same way as in September. That would be madness. I know that people will say that it's fine, vulnerable people are being vaccinated and kids don't get it badly BUT what is not acknowledged is that kids aren't being vaccinated, a lot of their teachers won't be by March 8th, nor their parents and so we still need to keep infection levels down. In addition, rampant covid is incredibly disruptive to education. Teachers off for weeks, kids off isolating, some kids in, some kids out...Sept to Dec was a mess that we should be trying our best to avoid repeating. Vaccinations don't address that issue at all.

Community levels are low, but then they were low in September. Pubs, restaurants and non-essential shops are shut now, but we want to be able to open them. We cannot rely on community levels remaining low to stop covid getting into schools and proliferating.

We need to be careful, because certainly secondary schools aren't safe to re-open in a Big Bang gung-ho way that some are advocating, particularly with a more transmissible variant in circulation. Remember to the week before Christmas when school attendance plummeted in Kent and London? In one LA, secondary attendance was at 17%. And yet the DfE decided to threaten schools that wanted to close early to stop the spread with legal action. The schools were right, and the DfE was wrong. Gavin Williamson can't be trusted to have sensible conversations about safety, he's more interested in bully-boy tactics and setting himself up in opposition to teachers and schools.

What can be done? I think there is room to open schools in some way on March 8th. My personal preference (and I'm no spokesperson for teachers here, other opinions will vary) would be primaries back and exam years back for three weeks, then Easter can be used to examine the impact of the full primary re-opening . I'm not sure that school is such a major factor in transmission at primary as it is at secondary for various reasons, however I'm sure that my primary colleagues have their own ideas about what needs to be done there. If full primary re-opening looks untenable, then I would prefer rotas to only certain year groups in. Some school for all pupils would be better than all school for some pupils as we had last year.

Secondary is a different kettle of fish and should be treated separately. Secondaries were a massive risk for transmission. The word 'bubble' should never be used in reference to secondary schools again, as 'bubble' means a group of people who all have to isolate if one of them catches covid, which went in the bin in secondary around the end of September. There are some easy wins in secondary -
Masks in classrooms would be easy and cheap to implement. Exemptions would apply and clear ones could be provided where necessary for lip reading.
A national programme to improve ventilation.
Testing and isolation of any contacts where positive cases are found to flush out asymptomatic pupils (PCR not LFT).
Moving quickly to remote learning where there are outbreaks instead of trying to keep year groups in and schools open as covid works its way through - the attendance just before Christmas in some schools meant kids would have been better served educationally if they were all at home.

Home LFT testing of kids - I'm not convinced tbh, maybe in addition to above measures, but certainly not instead of them.

So if the government messaging is as it has been: schools are safe and no additional measures to contain the spread in secondary are needed then they are lying and our kids deserve a more consistent and sustainable education than they got from September.

Fingers crossed they are more sensible than we have previously seen.

@AledsiPad

Most of us really don't care - we prioritise our children. They need to be in school. Teachers are free to quit - there are plenty of us training to replace them.

Good luck with that! You should be fighting for better safety measures for all then so schools can stay open.

@AledsiPad There really aren't. See DfE statistics on teacher recruitment and retention. The retention is the really interesting bit, do you really want training by an NQT?

The government is about to tell you that schools are safe

NO.

1. There's no such thing as 'safe' or 'not safe' in this context, it's just nonsense. Everyone agrees that there is virtually no risk to school students. The risk to teachers of serious illness depends mostly on their age, but also on underlying conditions. The risk to them is low. Teachers and TAs who are more vulnerable due to CEV status have the right to not work or be in non-contact roles, and should also be vaccinated now or very soon. Teachers are not most at risk - most at risk occupations are security guards, bus drivers, supermarket workers IIRC.

1. The reason schools were closed is not due to risk to students or teachers but because of the effect on community transmission. SAGE have said that levels are low enough to warrant schools re-opening, the detrimental effect on children and young people is such that the trade-off (delay to e.g. hospitality reopening) is considered worth it, and I agree.

1. The school experience in Sept-Dec was not 'a mess' in all schools, it certainly wasn't in my DC's two secondary schools, both of which had just a handful of cases that were very quickly contained.

1. If schools are such hotbeds of transmission, why weren't there thousands of schools with out-of-control rates of transmission being closed down all the time in Sept-Dec? It just didn't happen.

1. Many other countries also kept schools open as long as possible. It's not some evil Tory plot to kill off teachers. Read the Royal College of Paediatricians statement.

Schools are certainly safe for kids and as my kids MH and education is my first concern I want them to go back.

If that makes me an awful person then so be it. Teachers aren’t the only ones to be exposed. I was working as a TA up until very recently and now I’m working as a support worker in healthcare. I have worn masks in both jobs and got on with it. Yes it spreads into the community but a lot have been vaccinated now.

Boris hurry up and get the kids back!!

No @borntobequiet I was very clear in my post that there are no stats. I said no I could not provide peer reviewed evidence. It was an article where one reporter visited a London hospital and he was shocked that every single person in ITU was overweight. There was also a documentary.

So it could have just been a one off. But it was eye opening. The issue being that obese is not described as a serious underlying condition in the stats. Yet we know it causes huge risk of serious illness. It’s positive the government are recognising this now and are bumping obese people up the vaccination list. Maybe because they are aware of the pressures in ICU.

@Delatron

I didn’t say everything would be ok in a few weeks *@Suzeyshoes* I said we should be in a better position. And I think we will be. I don’t think most schools children will be going back then anyway.

It’s positive. The vaccinations are going well. Even quicker than we thought. And they are more effective than we thought.

But you think they should go back fully on 8th?

@FiveFootTwoEyesOfBlue

The government is about to tell you that schools are safe

NO.

1. There's no such thing as 'safe' or 'not safe' in this context, it's just nonsense. Everyone agrees that there is virtually no risk to school students. The risk to teachers of serious illness depends mostly on their age, but also on underlying conditions. The risk to them is low. Teachers and TAs who are more vulnerable due to CEV status have the right to not work or be in non-contact roles, and should also be vaccinated now or very soon. Teachers are not most at risk - most at risk occupations are security guards, bus drivers, supermarket workers IIRC.

1. The reason schools were closed is not due to risk to students or teachers but because of the effect on community transmission. SAGE have said that levels are low enough to warrant schools re-opening, the detrimental effect on children and young people is such that the trade-off (delay to e.g. hospitality reopening) is considered worth it, and I agree.

1. The school experience in Sept-Dec was not 'a mess' in all schools, it certainly wasn't in my DC's two secondary schools, both of which had just a handful of cases that were very quickly contained.

1. If schools are such hotbeds of transmission, why weren't there thousands of schools with out-of-control rates of transmission being closed down all the time in Sept-Dec? It just didn't happen.

1. Many other countries also kept schools open as long as possible. It's not some evil Tory plot to kill off teachers. Read the Royal College of Paediatricians statement.

Excellent post @FiveFootTwoEyesOfBlue

@AledsiPad

Most of us really don't care - we prioritise our children. They need to be in school. Teachers are free to quit - there are plenty of us training to replace them.

Good luck replacing my 30+ years of experience.

AledsiPad

Teachers are free to quit - there are plenty of us training to replace them.

Be interesting to know in which subject you are training in.

I don't know what more mitigations can be put in place in primary bar rotas (and marquees) so if there are suggestions from primary teachers here, I'd love to hear ideas. I'm not being 'blasé' about primary, just looking at the data and suggesting a trial period with all in to see how it goes

• Madatory mask wearing in all areas of the building unless exempt, for staff and children over 5

• Adaptions to buildings so that windows can fully open and ventilate rooms

• Supplies and staff to properly clean high risk surfaces daily

• Purchase of additional resources so children don’t have to share everything

• Employment of additional teachers to continue to provide online learning for CEV children who cannot be vaccinated yet

Of course, all of this requires funding from government, so I shan’t hold my breath.

@HauntedPencil

Is is going better than we thought. At one stage there was doubt if lockdown would hold it.

There are reasons to have some optimism.

Totally agree.

But alongside optimism we need caution because I do t think anyone can handle another lockdown.

I'd rather delay 3 weeks for security for the whole population. Which happens to include teachers.

[quote mumsneedwine]@AledsiPad ummmm who is going to train you ? [/quote]
And where will you train if schools are shutting bubbles and year groups?

So it could have just been a one off.

You mean, it was just a one off.

SeldomFollowedIt
Schools are certainly safe for kids and as my kids MH and education is my first concern I want them to go back.

Wanting them to go Go back and wanting them to stay back means two different things.

In order for going back so that it makes a difference to children's mental health has to be done in a way that is safe and sustainable.

What I would really genuinely like to understand, and I asked before but didn't get an answer, was whether school leadership are allowed to eg say everyone must wear masks. On some threads it seems to be implied teachers aren't allowed. But in my DDs' secondary school, masks were worn at all times indoors and they were strict on other measures too. They had very few cases, none at all till after half term and only two year groups affected at all. My girls had a full term in school full time, it was great. So on that basis, I would be happy for them to go back now but I do think stricter measures like masks are needed.

@Cantaloupeisland

Ok, putting the safety issue aside for one moment.

Schools going back in full will very likely result in the same situation we had before Christmas: staff and students having to isolate at the drop of a hat, partial and sometimes even full closures due to not enough staff or too many positive cases in a year group, some students spending more time confined to their houses than in school, constant uncertainty and disruption to education.

By asking for mitigation measures in schools, noble and others are trying to ensure that schools are more likely to be able to stay open and thus provide students with a more consistent educational experience. I really don't understand why some people are still not understanding this.

This.

My son is 4 and has had one term in school since February 2020. He’s missing some of the time in school. He’s an only child and is desperately missing social interaction. Our primary school has had no bubbles burst from September to December and our welsh county have never had more than 30 new cases a day, most often less than 20.

My son is going back on Wednesday. I wish they’d keep them off till Easter to get cases low enough and implement safety measures so this never happens again, but they haven’t, so it will. If schools stay open until Christmas this year I will be gobsmacked.

I think it’s probably just as prevalent in primary as secondary schools but the children are asymptomatic, so pass it between themselves and then it appears in their grandparent or the shopkeeper in the local Spar that had to handle the money they just sneezed on!

Five foot interesting you say that about most other countries. The information I've seen mosh other countries have had blended/rota learning throughout since last March and many countries they are still closed.

Plus many have also been shut on and off like us.

I'm also sure we have some of the largest class sizes?

Schools are certainly safe for kids and as my kids MH and education is my first concern I want them to go back.

Are teachers important to your children's education? Are cleaners, TAs, all the other people who must be in school?

Does it matter that their MH, and possibly their health, is affected by being in school?

@noblegiraffe I agree, thank you for your informative posts. I’ve read lots of your posts over the last year and they’ve helped shaped my thinking.

@AledsiPad

Most of us really don't care - we prioritise our children. They need to be in school. Teachers are free to quit - there are plenty of us training to replace them.

What a shitty attitude. First thing about teaching is to be a team. Did you mean to be so rude?

@bathsh3ba the government guidance specifically said that masks should not be worn in classrooms.
Some heads went against the guidance. Others did not.

What I would really genuinely like to understand, and I asked before but didn't get an answer, was whether school leadership are allowed to eg say everyone must wear masks

Schools leadership teams are allowedto make this a rule. However it was advised against by the DfE guidance, therefore not many places did. Some places started to ask for masks in corridors when the tier system came in.

Some teachers really don’t want to work do they

@Yoshinori

Some teachers really don’t want to work do they

Where have you formed that impression?

Regarding obesity. The WHO listed Obesity (BMI) over 30 as a risk factor, it was our counsel try that changed it to BMI over 40. It’s nothing new, and IMO was a mistake. However I’m not sure of the relevance here. BMI over 30 is still not a priority for vaccination on its own I believe? The tragedy of losing a relative to covid is not lessened by them being overweight