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The government is about to tell you that schools are safe

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2021 14:07

It's being reported that the government are about to embark on a two week PR campaign claiming that schools are safe. We've already seen hints of it in that Warwick report that was widely misreported as showing schools don't fuel community transmission (majorly pissing off the author who advocates a cautious return to schools).

The ONS random sampling survey graphs released today are amazing. They show a huge reduction in the infection rates due to lockdown, but the most incredible reduction is in the infection rate of secondary school children. They've gone from being the most infected subset of the population by far, to the 2nd least (behind 70+). It's clear that despite arguments that secondary kids were catching covid out of school (sleepovers, hanging around in parks etc), this just isn't true and the lack of mitigation measures in secondary schools allowed covid to run riot.

We can't re-open in the same way as in September. That would be madness. I know that people will say that it's fine, vulnerable people are being vaccinated and kids don't get it badly BUT what is not acknowledged is that kids aren't being vaccinated, a lot of their teachers won't be by March 8th, nor their parents and so we still need to keep infection levels down. In addition, rampant covid is incredibly disruptive to education. Teachers off for weeks, kids off isolating, some kids in, some kids out...Sept to Dec was a mess that we should be trying our best to avoid repeating. Vaccinations don't address that issue at all.

Community levels are low, but then they were low in September. Pubs, restaurants and non-essential shops are shut now, but we want to be able to open them. We cannot rely on community levels remaining low to stop covid getting into schools and proliferating.

We need to be careful, because certainly secondary schools aren't safe to re-open in a Big Bang gung-ho way that some are advocating, particularly with a more transmissible variant in circulation. Remember to the week before Christmas when school attendance plummeted in Kent and London? In one LA, secondary attendance was at 17%. And yet the DfE decided to threaten schools that wanted to close early to stop the spread with legal action. The schools were right, and the DfE was wrong. Gavin Williamson can't be trusted to have sensible conversations about safety, he's more interested in bully-boy tactics and setting himself up in opposition to teachers and schools.

What can be done? I think there is room to open schools in some way on March 8th. My personal preference (and I'm no spokesperson for teachers here, other opinions will vary) would be primaries back and exam years back for three weeks, then Easter can be used to examine the impact of the full primary re-opening . I'm not sure that school is such a major factor in transmission at primary as it is at secondary for various reasons, however I'm sure that my primary colleagues have their own ideas about what needs to be done there. If full primary re-opening looks untenable, then I would prefer rotas to only certain year groups in. Some school for all pupils would be better than all school for some pupils as we had last year.

Secondary is a different kettle of fish and should be treated separately. Secondaries were a massive risk for transmission. The word 'bubble' should never be used in reference to secondary schools again, as 'bubble' means a group of people who all have to isolate if one of them catches covid, which went in the bin in secondary around the end of September. There are some easy wins in secondary -
Masks in classrooms would be easy and cheap to implement. Exemptions would apply and clear ones could be provided where necessary for lip reading.
A national programme to improve ventilation.
Testing and isolation of any contacts where positive cases are found to flush out asymptomatic pupils (PCR not LFT).
Moving quickly to remote learning where there are outbreaks instead of trying to keep year groups in and schools open as covid works its way through - the attendance just before Christmas in some schools meant kids would have been better served educationally if they were all at home.

Home LFT testing of kids - I'm not convinced tbh, maybe in addition to above measures, but certainly not instead of them.

So if the government messaging is as it has been: schools are safe and no additional measures to contain the spread in secondary are needed then they are lying and our kids deserve a more consistent and sustainable education than they got from September.

Fingers crossed they are more sensible than we have previously seen.

The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
mumsneedwine · 19/02/2021 17:47

We want our workplaces open. With the same measures that other people's workplaces have. Why is this so hard to understand ? Yes it's got kids in it, but it's where I work and I have every right to expect the same safety measures as other workplaces. Like masks & social distancing. And if they are not possible (like in NHS) to get any vaccine available. Simple.

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2021 17:48

with most vulnerable people vaccinated.

Why do they keep repeating this lie?

OP posts:
HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 17:49

Can we stop the BS that all the vulnerable staff will have been vaccinated? In my area they're not doing CV yet, only just on U65s so no way will the staff over 50 be vaccinated. We also have had a few staff added to the shielding list, taking them out of the classroom until 31st March.

Staff absence is what caused lots of school closures, surely avoiding that is a good thing? Mitigation like masks, rotas and vaccines (when appropriate) would all help. Going back a la September is a terrible idea. Look where we were by October.

Redlocks28 · 19/02/2021 17:49

@mumsneedwine

We want our workplaces open. With the same measures that other people's workplaces have. Why is this so hard to understand ? Yes it's got kids in it, but it's where I work and I have every right to expect the same safety measures as other workplaces. Like masks & social distancing. And if they are not possible (like in NHS) to get any vaccine available. Simple.
Exactly this.
Redtulipses · 19/02/2021 17:49

I think we sometimes forget that schools didn't close last year because they were deemed unsafe, but rather because the NHS was becoming overwhelmed with mainly teachers of and unvaccinated people.

lonelyplanet · 19/02/2021 17:49

"I don't know what more mitigations can be put in place in primary bar rotas (and marquees) so if there are suggestions from primary teachers here, I'd love to hear ideas. I'm not being 'blasé' about primary, just looking at the data and suggesting a trial period with all in to see how it goes."

As I suggested a staggered return and rotas if things aren't looking good. I have been in school every day teaching a key worker group of about 12 who are spaced out. This feels reasonably safe. I won't feel safe spending 5 and a half hours a day in a small room with 30 children crammed in next to each other whist infection rates as high as they currently are. I'm over 50 but I don't suppose will get vaccinated until April.

Suzeyshoes · 19/02/2021 17:50

@delatron
That’s not true.
Please be careful with your claims. DH is a vaccines expert and has explained this to me on numerous occasions. Read the below for yourself. There are numerous reports out there with massively differing data, some saying the first jab is only 50% effective and only after 12 days.
In layman’s terms, a booster is what enables the immune system to jump to action as soon as the virus enters the body. Without it our defences are slower to appear and act.

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2036242
www.bbc.com/future/article/20210114-covid-19-how-effective-is-a-single-vaccine-dose

Redtulipses · 19/02/2021 17:50

Sorry that was meant to say 'with older and unvaccinated people' Blush

Delatron · 19/02/2021 17:50

My guess is that only a few primary years will go back and not secondary. Which I don’t agree with at all. Poor kids have sacrificed enough.

But by the time secondary do go back we will be in a much different situation.
Awful for the kids but should make some on here happy.

So no I don’t think the return is imminent @noblegiraffe I think when we know all the facts that is the time to have these conversations
.
Maybe we should wait until the announcement on 22nd as I feel all these threads go round and round in circles and everyone is just saying the same thing.

lonelyplanet · 19/02/2021 17:51

@mumsneedwine

We want our workplaces open. With the same measures that other people's workplaces have. Why is this so hard to understand ? Yes it's got kids in it, but it's where I work and I have every right to expect the same safety measures as other workplaces. Like masks & social distancing. And if they are not possible (like in NHS) to get any vaccine available. Simple.
I agree
herecomesthsun · 19/02/2021 17:51

[quote Delatron]@herecomesthsun I don’t really need to discuss it further thanks.

You’ll have a job arguing children should be off school once hospital admissions are coming down and the NHS can cope...

Or is that not the aim anymore? Is that what you are arguing for? Because that’s a different argument.[/quote]
It's slightly more complicated than that.

We need to be in a place where the inevitable rise in infections is not likely to overwhelm us in the very near future (as we don't want to be pinging in and out of lockdown and we don't want further unnecessary large loss of life that is avoidable).

We also have issues with possible spread of more infectious variants (eg SA) and also possible further mutations in the school environmment,

So on all these counts we need the population vaccinated to the fullest extent we can and also community numbers as low as possible. After Easter is looking like a betterbet right now than early March to behonest.

lonelyplanet · 19/02/2021 17:53

@ZaphodBeeblerox

I just wanted to also add - the nurseries that have stayed open in London (the ones that are attached to private schools) have had repeated cases of bubbles being sent home for positive cases, and several patterns of cases that suggest that transmission occured within the classroom of 3 - 5 year olds. (Where say, one child got it, then another, then both sets of parents got it a few days later and so on).

I don't know what the solution is since I really feel for the parents whose kids are struggling at home. But claiming that schools aren't spreading it is BS I think, and IME anecdotally at least it is spreading in the under-5s cohort.

I think nursery staff have been treated very badly.
HercwasanEnemyofEducation · 19/02/2021 17:53

Education won’t need to be disrupted if the NHS is not overwhelmed......

What do you think happens when staff are off ill with covid?

What do you think happens when staff have to isolate?

What do you think happens when students are off ill with covid?

What do you think happens when students have to isolate?

All of those scenarios lead to disrupted education and have no link to the NHS whatsoever.

Monkeytennis97 · 19/02/2021 17:54

@mumsneedwine

We want our workplaces open. With the same measures that other people's workplaces have. Why is this so hard to understand ? Yes it's got kids in it, but it's where I work and I have every right to expect the same safety measures as other workplaces. Like masks & social distancing. And if they are not possible (like in NHS) to get any vaccine available. Simple.
Spot on.
Linearpark · 19/02/2021 17:54

We have to die of something.

Yeah, but most of us don’t want to die of Covid, before our time

Which is most unlikely as most who die of covid are elderly. Heart disease is much more likely than covid to kill you if you are middle aged.

Delatron · 19/02/2021 17:56

Hi @Suzeyshoes the article you quoted was from Jan. All the latest info (and it really is updated daily as more and more get vaccinated) is showing much higher for the first dose. So current research showing 75% for Pfizer and I think similar for Astra -Z. It’s all over the news. But do correct me if I’m
wrong.

I though the data about vaccines was changing all the time so Jan figures you are quoting are very out of date. But then I guess your DH would know this so...

delightfuldaisy19 · 19/02/2021 17:58

@AhFiddledeedee

The schools need to be reopened.

The most vulnerable groups have been vaccinated now. I do think teachers should be upped in the priority list.

Children have already lost nearly a year of "proper" school. Teachers are doing their best, but it is absolutely not the same. For ones that already struggled, or dont have the means to access technology they may never catch up.

Enough is enough now.

Completely agree.

I'm a teacher and would go back tomorrow (even though tomorrow is Saturday). We just need to get back to normal - these kids have done so much as part of the collective effort to protect the elderly and the vulnerable. It's their turn now.

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2021 17:58

I agree with your point, OP, but sadly I think it's moot. The policies which would make schools safer have been brought to the government constantly over the last year; it's been made quite clear there is no interest in pursuing them from the minister.

Most of these policies take time and money to organise, there is little chance for them to have a big effect before summer. I think we must accept that schools will open and cases will rise and we must hope that vaccinations will be sufficient to prevent yet more disruption.

MsAwesomeDragon · 19/02/2021 17:58

@Wnikat

Vulnerable teachers have been vaccinated.
Not all of them. I'm CV because I'm diabetic. I haven't been vaccinated yet, haven't been invited to book a vaccine yet. I'm hoping I'll get it soon. But no, vulnerable teachers haven't all been vaccinated yet.
donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2021 18:02

I'm a teacher and would go back tomorrow (even though tomorrow is Saturday). We just need to get back to normal - these kids have done so much as part of the collective effort to protect the elderly and the vulnerable. It's their turn now.

I feel the same but the choice is not about whether we get kids back in school- the choice is about being able to minimise further disruption by managing the return effectively and prioritising key groups like Y11.

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 18:03

@Timeturnerplease

So anecdotally this is new strain (Kent?) and it is highly transmissible

Funnily enough, we are less than ten miles from the Kent border....

I'm further SW but I would think it's reached us by now!
itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 18:04

@mumsneedwine

We want our workplaces open. With the same measures that other people's workplaces have. Why is this so hard to understand ? Yes it's got kids in it, but it's where I work and I have every right to expect the same safety measures as other workplaces. Like masks & social distancing. And if they are not possible (like in NHS) to get any vaccine available. Simple.
It's ironic isn't it that they want kids left at home when people go to supermarkets. And if they go and are over 11 to wear a mask.

They say to reduce numbers in shops.

Let's Chuck them into school en masse then instead? Without masks? Without SD? Without Perspex screens?

rwalker · 19/02/2021 18:04

Past caring you could ask 10 people 5 with be outraged schools shut 5 will be outraged schools open and everyone you speak to is an expert.

Suzeyshoes · 19/02/2021 18:05

@delatron

The first study was published on the 17th Feb. Please can you send me the link to yours?
There is an Israeli study that reports increased efficacy but it too was from studies carried out in December abs focuses on efficacy in asymptomatic cases.

MyDcAreMarvel · 19/02/2021 18:05

@bravefox Jaw hit the floor earlier when I read there's now talk of vaccinating WFM 40 yr olds ahead of teachers, police etc in their 30s why? Age not profession is the single biggest risk factor for Covid-19. A 40 year old contracting Covid-19 in Asda is more likely to be seriously ill than a 30 year old teacher.