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The government is about to tell you that schools are safe

999 replies

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2021 14:07

It's being reported that the government are about to embark on a two week PR campaign claiming that schools are safe. We've already seen hints of it in that Warwick report that was widely misreported as showing schools don't fuel community transmission (majorly pissing off the author who advocates a cautious return to schools).

The ONS random sampling survey graphs released today are amazing. They show a huge reduction in the infection rates due to lockdown, but the most incredible reduction is in the infection rate of secondary school children. They've gone from being the most infected subset of the population by far, to the 2nd least (behind 70+). It's clear that despite arguments that secondary kids were catching covid out of school (sleepovers, hanging around in parks etc), this just isn't true and the lack of mitigation measures in secondary schools allowed covid to run riot.

We can't re-open in the same way as in September. That would be madness. I know that people will say that it's fine, vulnerable people are being vaccinated and kids don't get it badly BUT what is not acknowledged is that kids aren't being vaccinated, a lot of their teachers won't be by March 8th, nor their parents and so we still need to keep infection levels down. In addition, rampant covid is incredibly disruptive to education. Teachers off for weeks, kids off isolating, some kids in, some kids out...Sept to Dec was a mess that we should be trying our best to avoid repeating. Vaccinations don't address that issue at all.

Community levels are low, but then they were low in September. Pubs, restaurants and non-essential shops are shut now, but we want to be able to open them. We cannot rely on community levels remaining low to stop covid getting into schools and proliferating.

We need to be careful, because certainly secondary schools aren't safe to re-open in a Big Bang gung-ho way that some are advocating, particularly with a more transmissible variant in circulation. Remember to the week before Christmas when school attendance plummeted in Kent and London? In one LA, secondary attendance was at 17%. And yet the DfE decided to threaten schools that wanted to close early to stop the spread with legal action. The schools were right, and the DfE was wrong. Gavin Williamson can't be trusted to have sensible conversations about safety, he's more interested in bully-boy tactics and setting himself up in opposition to teachers and schools.

What can be done? I think there is room to open schools in some way on March 8th. My personal preference (and I'm no spokesperson for teachers here, other opinions will vary) would be primaries back and exam years back for three weeks, then Easter can be used to examine the impact of the full primary re-opening . I'm not sure that school is such a major factor in transmission at primary as it is at secondary for various reasons, however I'm sure that my primary colleagues have their own ideas about what needs to be done there. If full primary re-opening looks untenable, then I would prefer rotas to only certain year groups in. Some school for all pupils would be better than all school for some pupils as we had last year.

Secondary is a different kettle of fish and should be treated separately. Secondaries were a massive risk for transmission. The word 'bubble' should never be used in reference to secondary schools again, as 'bubble' means a group of people who all have to isolate if one of them catches covid, which went in the bin in secondary around the end of September. There are some easy wins in secondary -
Masks in classrooms would be easy and cheap to implement. Exemptions would apply and clear ones could be provided where necessary for lip reading.
A national programme to improve ventilation.
Testing and isolation of any contacts where positive cases are found to flush out asymptomatic pupils (PCR not LFT).
Moving quickly to remote learning where there are outbreaks instead of trying to keep year groups in and schools open as covid works its way through - the attendance just before Christmas in some schools meant kids would have been better served educationally if they were all at home.

Home LFT testing of kids - I'm not convinced tbh, maybe in addition to above measures, but certainly not instead of them.

So if the government messaging is as it has been: schools are safe and no additional measures to contain the spread in secondary are needed then they are lying and our kids deserve a more consistent and sustainable education than they got from September.

Fingers crossed they are more sensible than we have previously seen.

The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
The government is about to tell you that schools are safe
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 17:32

[quote Delatron]@itsgettingwierd all the stats you quote do not change the absolute risk to individuals.

I am not disputing that the hospitals have been overwhelmed! That doesn’t mean your individual risk of dying from Covid has changed 🙄.

But we’ll be in a very different place in a few weeks as we’re racing through the vaccinations.[/quote]
Agree. We will be in a very different place.

And I think the extra 3 weeks which becomes 5 with Easter will put us in an even better place.

But it still stands that you can't put in individual risk because actually we don't know with this virus.

50% of hospital admissions are working age people. All those are Entitled to covid secure workplaces. And it includes teachers.

Delatron · 19/02/2021 17:32

Education won’t need to be disrupted if the NHS is not overwhelmed......

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2021 17:32

@Delatron locally we have just started over 65s so I expect to get mine by late April. I'm not going back until I've had it and waited 3 weeks. Seems fair to me as a 53 year old with a heart thing. But I don't take enough drugs to get into group 6. Despite 2 hospitalisations in 2 years. Believe me I have tried.

Piggywaspushed · 19/02/2021 17:33

It was massively disrupted when the NHS wasn't overwhelmed but I forgot you are advocating getting rid of isolation.

Delatron · 19/02/2021 17:34

Hopefully they’ll get to you quicker than that then @mumsneedwine

ZaphodBeeblerox · 19/02/2021 17:34

I just wanted to also add - the nurseries that have stayed open in London (the ones that are attached to private schools) have had repeated cases of bubbles being sent home for positive cases, and several patterns of cases that suggest that transmission occured within the classroom of 3 - 5 year olds. (Where say, one child got it, then another, then both sets of parents got it a few days later and so on).

I don't know what the solution is since I really feel for the parents whose kids are struggling at home. But claiming that schools aren't spreading it is BS I think, and IME anecdotally at least it is spreading in the under-5s cohort.

Suzeyshoes · 19/02/2021 17:34

@Delatron
But we’ll be in a very different place in a few weeks as we’re racing through the vaccinations.

This simply isn’t true.
We are racing through FIRST injections. Nobody is safe until they’ve had the booster, and there are doubts over availability of these. Added to this, the efficacy rate was based on a booster jab that was given within 3-4 weeks which won’t happen. Even if the first jab does its job, it doesn’t kick in until 12 days post infection.

And of course there’s the fact it’s a virus. The defining characteristic of a virus is that it multiplies and mutates, adapting to its environment as it goes. It’s extremely naive to think everything will be over in a matter of weeks.

ssd · 19/02/2021 17:35

So agree with you @noblegiraffe

I think what's happening here in Scotland sounds a bit like what you would like to see?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2021 17:36

@Delatron I hope so, but that's the expected date. If they'd vaccinate me sooner then I'd be back in the classroom sooner. I like my classroom. I want to go back, but I also don't want to get sick.

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2021 17:36

Both React and PHE (released yesterday and attached) disagree with ONS. I wonder whether with a primary age child you too have an agenda and want to choose which data to believe?

Can't see the attachment but I know that the PHE data relies on people being tested and the ONS data doesn't, it's random sampling so I've always looked to the ONS data for a grasp of how things are going. If you look at my previous threads it's not a case of me using PHE data and ditching it now because I don't like it. I did start a thread about the primary ONS data when it looked alarming before Christmas.

I've also got a child in secondary, if that evens things up?

I don't know what more mitigations can be put in place in primary bar rotas (and marquees) so if there are suggestions from primary teachers here, I'd love to hear ideas. I'm not being 'blasé' about primary, just looking at the data and suggesting a trial period with all in to see how it goes.

OP posts:
Delatron · 19/02/2021 17:36

Yes @Piggywaspushed you’re right when the hospitals were quiet from May onwards last year and all the pubs and the shops were open education was disrupted. Shocking and let’s hope that doesn’t happen again.

herecomesthsun · 19/02/2021 17:37

@Delatron

Education won’t need to be disrupted if the NHS is not overwhelmed......
This is an odd random comment of which it is difficult to make sense.

Changes to delivery of education are quite usual in pandemics.

It doesn't make sense to wait until the health services are overwhelmed to put these in place.

Previously there were changes in organisation of education during flu and polio pandemics in the last century.

We can discuss further if you like.

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 17:37

@Delatron

You’ve admitted you are terrified *@itsgettingwierd* Are you vulnerable?
I haven't admitted I'm terrified? Not in the slightest. But I've seen how bad this has been for plenty of people not considered at risk. One ended U.K. having a cardiac arrest at 34, needing a Trachy and having her baby delivered by c section at 34 weeks to help save her. 11 months on lucky mum and baby are doing as well as they can.

I'm not considered high risk in the slightest and was also extremely ill with it last year.

However today I'm 3 weeks post vaccine 1 - so I'm better protected!

What I think is as an overall approach as a country we should consider how we open things up. And if we are saying hairdressers are masks and shield and 50% business capacity due to necessary covid secure measures and probably won't open until April or May - why are they also saying schools with no masks, no SD, no extra cleaning and 1000s on a premises are "safe".

I dont buy the narrative because it goes against everything else they say the science says.

Delatron · 19/02/2021 17:38

@Suzeyshoes you do know the first vaccination offers most protection and the second is just a small top up?

Piggywaspushed · 19/02/2021 17:39

I was talking more about September to December delatron.

DumplingsAndStew · 19/02/2021 17:40

So is everyone here either back to work, or going back to work? With no masks, no social distancing. You can open a window if you like, but be careful that Jane across the desk from you doesn't tell her mum it's too cold, or she'll moan to have it closed.

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 17:41

@Delatron

Education won’t need to be disrupted if the NHS is not overwhelmed......
It will if covid spreads round schools and teachers are isolating!

That doesn't stop vaccinated or not!

MrsMackesy · 19/02/2021 17:41

With regret I agree OP, secondary schools in particular are not safe. Thinking particularly of the children in vulnerable health or with family members at home who are in vulnerable health. Also not forgetting staff and their families and wider community in vulnerable health in particular. Group 6 - which includes those 16-18 year olds in vulnerable health and some even shielding but forgotten by this government or not on the limited extremely medically vulnerable list - won't have had both vaccine doses until probably the end of May. I hope secondary schools stay online until then.

Having just spoken again to a carer friend I have been supporting in lockdown - let's not forget children who are disabled and in vulnerable health but not on the shielding list. They seem to have been completely forgotten by the government, and those under 16 cannot yet have the vaccine with no end in sight.

Delatron · 19/02/2021 17:41

@herecomesthsun I don’t really need to discuss it further thanks.

You’ll have a job arguing children should be off school once hospital admissions are coming down and the NHS can cope...

Or is that not the aim anymore? Is that what you are arguing for? Because that’s a different argument.

Chichiboo · 19/02/2021 17:42

i agree with you

itsgettingwierd · 19/02/2021 17:43

@Delatron

Yes *@Piggywaspushed* you’re right when the hospitals were quiet from May onwards last year and all the pubs and the shops were open education was disrupted. Shocking and let’s hope that doesn’t happen again.
This I agree with.

It would just be nice if people also agreed that when all those pubs etc had to open covid securely that the same should apply to schools and the same safe workplaces should be afforded to teachers.

I'm sure that's all they're asking

borntobequiet · 19/02/2021 17:44

We have to die of something.

Yeah, but most of us don’t want to die of Covid, before our time.

noblegiraffe · 19/02/2021 17:45

We’re not there yet though are we, Delatron?

No point in saying ‘well in the future we won’t have to make kids isolate’ when what is actually under discussion is an imminent return to schools.

OP posts:
Redtulipses · 19/02/2021 17:46

Education won’t need to be disrupted if the NHS is not overwhelmed..

I think the poster meant that it won't be necessary to self isolate school bubbles because the risk to pupils and teachers is now very low, with most vulnerable people vaccinated.

At some point we will just have live with the virus and, especially the young people, build up natural immunity from fighting off the virus.

Timeturnerplease · 19/02/2021 17:46

So anecdotally this is new strain (Kent?) and it is highly transmissible

Funnily enough, we are less than ten miles from the Kent border....

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