Anti-lockdown campaigners using children to push their agenda

[noblegiraffe]

I can't be the only one disgusted with how certain groups are using faux concern about children to push the earliest dismantling of lockdown restrictions.

They are loudly catastrophising on the front pages of the press about our kids. The lost generation. £40,000 in lost earnings. Articles about schools full of traumatised kids suffering PTSD caused by lockdown.

And the solution they propose is always to re-open schools as early as possible. Even before March 8th. Regardless of covid.

Now, the situation in schools before Christmas was awful. Some areas of the country had less than 50% attendance due to the new variant ripping through secondary schools. Secondary school kids were the most infected subset of the population by far, and are now the second least infected subset of the population behind the 70+ age group after schools were closed, demonstrating that there was a massive problem with transmission in secondary schools. It wasn't good for pupils' mental health or education to be in a situation when they didn't know if they'd be in school or out at the drop of a hat. But before Christmas, there was complete media silence on the impact that this was having on children.

CAMHS has been devastated by cuts. Waiting lists are intolerable and children in dire need of support don't even qualify. Same for social care around vulnerable children.

Yet you won't hear these people clamouring for schools re-opening as soon as possible talking at all about how to improve safety measures in schools to prevent the scenario we had before Christmas happening again. You won't hear them demanding more funding for children's mental health services and for more support for social care services.

And the reason you won't hear that is that THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

The reason that they want schools re-opened as quickly as possible is because the message was that schools had to open first.

They can't get what they really want open (everything else) until schools are open, hence the massive focus on schools and how terrible things are for children.

This catastrophising isn't good for parents or kids. It's scaremongering and unhelpful.

I know that there are kids (and parents) really struggling with their mental health and worried about their education. Blaring out messages about how terrible things are and how they will never recover because you want to hype up the message about schools going back is irresponsible and sickening.

We need sensible and calm conversations about how to support children and parents. We need funding for schools and massive investment in support services. We need a long-term program of recovery, not 9 months of a Catch-Up Tsar and quick fixes. We need a measured and sensible approach to schools re-opening that won't see kids in and out and in and out due to lack of mitigation measures causing rampant covid spread (particularly with the new variant).

We need these anti-lockdown campaigners to shut up and stop dominating the narrative.

You can educate without having to adhere to an imposed homeschooling schedule that involves a compulsory 9am online class meeting.

I agree. But most primary schools aren't expecting this. Most of the work can be accessed as and when it suits parents. Makes sense to do what school are providing rather than resource your own?

What a stupid statement
Of course it was stupid. That was the point.

But it's no more stupid than claims that facilitating access to home learning equals doing the job of a teacher and therefore parents should be paid.

There is more to being a chef than cooking a meal. There is more to being a teacher than supporting access to pre-planned materials.

There's lots of interesting and reasonable areas for debate around education at the moment, but frankly silly claims about doing teachers' jobs for them only undermine any pretence at wanting a reasonable debate.

@MaxNormal

That's quite some bunch of accusations in the OP. Horribly polarising, no attempt at a balanced conversation just slurring any opposing viewpoints.

This is all I got from that OP as well...

But parents are doing a lot of the work which schools would normally be doing. That's why they're losing their own jobs, having to take unpaid leave or having to make up hours in the evening. Many schools are demanding a parent is there to supervise online lessons for younger children. This is work and parents should be paid for it. It is different work to a teacher's work but work nonetheless.

This is all I got from that OP as well..

654 posts suggest that at least some other people managed a more intelligent response

My kids are ok. I’m incredibly concerned about the rise in abuse and kids that must feel trapped in their own private hell right now but this is a much wider issue and just opening the schools isn’t going to change things just lob a sticking plaster over this gaping wound.

What evidence do you have to support this claim that "no young child will suffer", other than anecdotal? And if you've had your kids home with you since Feb 2020, i.e. during a time when schools were open from September to December, what's stopping you from carrying on until it's safe for them to go back? I guess you'll call me selfish for saying this, but forcing millions of healthy children to stay at home because a small percentage is vulnerable is not very fair either.

MessAllOver
Believe me I totally accept that facilitating remote learning has a huge impact on parents. I don't doubt that and I think there should have been clear guidance to employers on the reality of the situation. At least that way women wouldn't be disproportionately shafted compared to men during this lockdown.
I also think there should have been better guidance on what to expect in terms of parental involvement and the nature of education during lockdown. For every frothy Mumsnetter who spent days complaining that anything other than 6 hours of life video lessons was going to ruin their child's future, there's probably 5 or 6 more who are thinking 'how on earth am I meant to work when school are wanting my child online for GoogleClassroom 4 hours at a time?' My fear is that the loud voices of privileged parents who have a nice home, lots of devices, the ability to work flexible hours themselves, etc have disproportionately dominated the discussion about remote learning. The consequence of this is that more schools are moving towards a packed timetable that is actually quite difficult for a typical family to keep up with.

My issue is that when people start with the 'but we are doing a teacher's job', it's the sort of silly comment that is more about point scoring than sensible debate.

In my area (South East England) they are vaccinating Group 6 next week. So all clinically vulnerable teachers and parents and all CEV should have been offered first dose of vaccine before 8 March. CEV would have built up immunity from vaccine in last couple of weeks. So the kids going back to school should be fine. They need it, time for them to be put first. The kids won’t be vaccinated for ages and we can’t keep them off until then. Anyone actually clinically at risk can call their GP to get on the Group 6 list if they have the conditions listed in the Green Book.
I am neither pro nor anti lockdown - middle of the road. My 4 kids are privileged but the gap between them and poorer kids has only widened during this pandemic. Inequalities were already pretty bad pre Covid - I just don’t think we can afford as a society to let that continue any longer. It is the life chances of a whole generation we are talking about.
I am very comfortable in my lockdown bubble with my Ocado deliveries and so are my children with their reading kindles, Lego’s, big garden and zoom music lessons. But I just don’t think it is right to assume that others are OK in lockdown, it feels hypocritical to. It feels too privileged to like lockdown so I am not surprised that is the majority view on this site.

Ok then- to those who want to rush to open schools now-now-now, without mitigating measures (rotas, masks, social distancing, blended learning). You believe covid is a “non event” for most younger people. I disagree, but fair enough. I give you this scenario though : open schools before enough people are vaccinated and the resulting high levels of community transmission will mean more mutations. The Bristol mutation (similar to the South African) is already more vaccine resistant. The next one could be completely resistant. At that point we’ll have to lock down again, and it will take 6-9 months to tweak the vaccines and get production up sufficiently to start re-immunising everyone over again. That’s another year of disrupted education for children. Is that what you want? Isn’t it better to take it slowly at this point and be out of this mess by the start of the next academic year?
Never mind that the next mutation could be more harmful to children. Is this a risk worth taking?

@noblegiraffe

This is all I got from that OP as well..

654 posts suggest that at least some other people managed a more intelligent response

You just can't help yourself can you?

This is what gives you away as being totally disingenuous.

@LolaSmiles. I agree that parents aren't doing a teacher's job and that it's not sensible to compare the two. What they're really doing is the "babysitting"/minding aspect of education, combined with tech and coordination. So it is a different job. Is it possible to put a value on this? Well, on the grapevine I've heard of families who have been hiring nannies/babysitters to do the homeschooling for them. So that could be a useful comparison for valuing the services which parents are providing.

@ichundich

What evidence do you have to support this claim that "no young child will suffer", other than anecdotal? And if you've had your kids home with you since Feb 2020, i.e. during a time when schools were open from September to December, what's stopping you from carrying on until it's safe for them to go back? I guess you'll call me selfish for saying this, but forcing millions of healthy children to stay at home because a small percentage is vulnerable is not very fair either.

I've no issue keeping mine at home and I probably will if they motor on with full reopening as if nothing has happened since December. I would send them back into school if rotas were implemented or some other worthwhile mitigation to decrease the risks. If not then we need to think of a way to get the small percentage of vulnerable kids into school safely as well because otherwise we are discriminating against them. My child has as much right to an education as any other child. We don't allow nuts in school due to a very very small number of children with nut allergies should we all just say 'fuck it its only a small number and the rest love Nutella so we will carry on so the rest aren't feeling punished' And let's not forget about the children who aren't vulnerable but who also may suffer from covid...pims and other issues it is causing (yes its a small percentage of them as well but still a risk)

No one wants millions of children to stay at home. I know very very very few people who advocate for school closures like we have at the minute, it benefits absolutely no one but there does need to be a sustainable way forward from this for schools to also prevent this cycle of opening and closing them.

Seen this? Considering most people are trying to keep their kids home, I wonder why infection rates are not dropping as fast in primary and nursery aged children?

They might not be dropping "as fast" but they are still dropping "fast" or "very fast". If we do not embark on a "zero covid" mission, all we need to do is to keep the transmission rate under 1. As long as cases do not increase, we have got pandemic under control.

Looks like open nurseries and primaries with the 25% attendance allow us to successfully and rapidly drive cases down.

Specifically on nursery outbreaks, in the previous week there were 45 documented covid outbreaks in nurseries. The screenshot from the PHE report might look alarming but it does not show the denominator. There are more than 23,500 day nurseries in the UK (excluding childminders and nurseries attached to primary schools) so we are talking about a really small percentage.

I am also not sure all people are "trying to keep their kids at home". My DD has been attending nursery throughout December and January. She didn't need to (we could have easily made alternative arrangements) but I thought that on balance for her development benefits of socialisation by far outweigh remote risk of getting covid. Most of other parents seem to have made a similar call - the nursery has remained busy during and since the peak of the second wave.

I must admit as a parent I would love @noblegiraffe to be one if my children's teacher. She clearly is dedicated to providing kids with an education.
I too find it a little unsavoury the way certain groups like children have been latched onto re the Pandemic. The why should my child miss school or swimming lessons to save some old person on their last legs etc. Of the course it isn't even about saving an old person per se. It's more about protecting the NHS etc etc. Most old people and ECV have been protecting themselves as much as possible. Not easy though if community rates are high and said individuals have school aged kids and must attend medical appointments etc. Even harder for those who are CV.
I also wish these people cared about the number of SEN kids being denied an education due to lack of suitable spaces. Hell a child misses maybe two terms due the the pandemic and their education and Mental Health is ruined. Yet some SEN kids have missed years and the mental health of kids who are constantly let down by CAMHS before the Pandemic is s huge problem. Even bigger issue now.

Are most schools doing live lessons ?
Can parents speak with the schools and raise concerns that it isn't feasible for their families ?
We don't have live lessons. The lessons are uploaded with information of what is required and with video recordings and powerpoints of the teaching and therefore can be done at a time which suits each families individual needs.
They do ask where possible to upload the work on the day it is set or the following morning but they recognise that not everyone will be able to do this

You just can't help yourself can you?

This is what gives you away as being totally disingenuous.

Uh?

gallbladderpain schools are dammed if they do and damned if they don't.
We have a full live online timetable and lessons are also recorded. We've had complaints about too much and too little work.
I like live teaching because I can work with my students but I recognise the problems it can cause. You only need to look at the diverse range of complaints on this site about too much and too little to see the problems.
I contacted two students last week because they'd suddenly gone quiet on me. In both cases, my concern was justified and I've been able to support them.

We don't allow nuts in school due to a very very small number of children with nut allergies should we all just say 'fuck it its only a small number and the rest love Nutella so we will carry on so the rest aren't feeling punished'

Our school does allow nuts at secondary because students are expected to self manage. I thought more primary schools were going this way too? Obviously not possible in special schools. (sorry for thread derail, genuinely interested in this).

@EarlGreywithLemon

Ok then- to those who want to rush to open schools now-now-now, without mitigating measures (rotas, masks, social distancing, blended learning). You believe covid is a “non event” for most younger people. I disagree, but fair enough. I give you this scenario though : open schools before enough people are vaccinated and the resulting high levels of community transmission will mean more mutations. The Bristol mutation (similar to the South African) is already more vaccine resistant. The next one could be completely resistant. At that point we’ll have to lock down again, and it will take 6-9 months to tweak the vaccines and get production up sufficiently to start re-immunising everyone over again. That’s another year of disrupted education for children. Is that what you want? Isn’t it better to take it slowly at this point and be out of this mess by the start of the next academic year? Never mind that the next mutation could be more harmful to children. Is this a risk worth taking?

If there is this all so dangerous mutation and it is going to spread like wildfire and the vaccine not work then we are just screwed and tbh may as well just give up now. Whilst there is not an effective track and trace in place it will just spread, so there is just no point.

If it is going to mutate it will, whether or not the children are in school.

@MrsHamlet

gallbladderpain schools are dammed if they do and damned if they don't. We have a full live online timetable and lessons are also recorded. We've had complaints about too much and too little work. I like live teaching because I can work with my students but I recognise the problems it can cause. You only need to look at the diverse range of complaints on this site about too much and too little to see the problems. I contacted two students last week because they'd suddenly gone quiet on me. In both cases, my concern was justified and I've been able to support them.

Oh I fully understand that. I feel sorry for any teacher at the minute. I've had no call to contact the school as I've been very happy with the provision. Is there a couple of small things I would change about it, maybe, but I am not going to contact school to complain about those because I can solve them myself and the teacher does not need anymore stress or workload. Everyone I know who has contacted the school though has felt very supported by them.

@Gallbladder Yes, we have live lessons, which our children have to attend (primary). There is an expectation that parents are on hand during these, so that means I cannot get on with my own work during this time.
In any case no matter how good home-learning provision is, it can never be the same as being in school because it lacks most of the social aspects, working in teams, PE and much more.
Numbers have fallen since 4th January despite of many primaries being 30 to 50% full. There is, therefore, no justification for keeping schools closed for much longer. Cases spiked in the autumn / winter mainly because foreign holidays were allowed to go ahead in the summer and the harebrained Eat out to help out scheme.

@gallbladderpain. You're right, of course... it is a mixed picture. From what I can see, many schools seem to be requiring children to attend an online registration session at beginning/end of the day and have some sessions in between. Others are offering very little/no live teaching for primary pupils. Some contact parents when work isn't submitted promptly, some seem more relaxed. My own view is that screen time for the under 10s should be limited so I think less is more for primary... but I know others disagree.

But I've realised how far this discussion has digressed from the subject of the OP, so going to try to refrain from going any more off-topic beyond saying that I do think families need more support, financial and otherwise .

@HercwasanEnemyofEducation

We don't allow nuts in school due to a very very small number of children with nut allergies should we all just say 'fuck it its only a small number and the rest love Nutella so we will carry on so the rest aren't feeling punished'

Our school does allow nuts at secondary because students are expected to self manage. I thought more primary schools were going this way too? Obviously not possible in special schools. (sorry for thread derail, genuinely interested in this).

I'm not sure at secondary age but certainly in any nursery, pre school or primary setting we have used or visited in recent years it has been a complete no nuts policy. None on the premises for children or adults at our school due to 1 child in a very large school having a severe nut allergy. I've no issue with it, I found nut free chocolate spread and that has kept the DC happy

Thanks @gallbladderpain. I only 'know' secondary and have a friend trying to navigate nut allergies from reception next year and school insist they're following guidance that a nut ban isn't best practise.
(back to covid now!)