Anti-lockdown campaigners using children to push their agenda

[noblegiraffe]

I can't be the only one disgusted with how certain groups are using faux concern about children to push the earliest dismantling of lockdown restrictions.

They are loudly catastrophising on the front pages of the press about our kids. The lost generation. £40,000 in lost earnings. Articles about schools full of traumatised kids suffering PTSD caused by lockdown.

And the solution they propose is always to re-open schools as early as possible. Even before March 8th. Regardless of covid.

Now, the situation in schools before Christmas was awful. Some areas of the country had less than 50% attendance due to the new variant ripping through secondary schools. Secondary school kids were the most infected subset of the population by far, and are now the second least infected subset of the population behind the 70+ age group after schools were closed, demonstrating that there was a massive problem with transmission in secondary schools. It wasn't good for pupils' mental health or education to be in a situation when they didn't know if they'd be in school or out at the drop of a hat. But before Christmas, there was complete media silence on the impact that this was having on children.

CAMHS has been devastated by cuts. Waiting lists are intolerable and children in dire need of support don't even qualify. Same for social care around vulnerable children.

Yet you won't hear these people clamouring for schools re-opening as soon as possible talking at all about how to improve safety measures in schools to prevent the scenario we had before Christmas happening again. You won't hear them demanding more funding for children's mental health services and for more support for social care services.

And the reason you won't hear that is that THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

The reason that they want schools re-opened as quickly as possible is because the message was that schools had to open first.

They can't get what they really want open (everything else) until schools are open, hence the massive focus on schools and how terrible things are for children.

This catastrophising isn't good for parents or kids. It's scaremongering and unhelpful.

I know that there are kids (and parents) really struggling with their mental health and worried about their education. Blaring out messages about how terrible things are and how they will never recover because you want to hype up the message about schools going back is irresponsible and sickening.

We need sensible and calm conversations about how to support children and parents. We need funding for schools and massive investment in support services. We need a long-term program of recovery, not 9 months of a Catch-Up Tsar and quick fixes. We need a measured and sensible approach to schools re-opening that won't see kids in and out and in and out due to lack of mitigation measures causing rampant covid spread (particularly with the new variant).

We need these anti-lockdown campaigners to shut up and stop dominating the narrative.

@HalfPastThree see the evidence up thread....

@HalfPastThree

And what about the fact that children are often the index cases in a household?

This is another myth and has been debunked many times. When someone brings it into a household, then gives it to the others, it is normally an adult. Adults give it to children far more often than children give it to adults. There is lots of data on this.

This (published last month)

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30981-6/fulltext

is quite a long read but it makes a some interesting observations (I paraphrase):
Within households, infants were more likely to be infected than older children; children and adolescents were more likely to infect others than were older age groups; cases younger than 20 years were nearly 60% more likely to infect others than cases aged 60 years or older; children with SARS-CoV-2 infection, particularly those who were secondary cases, were more likely than adults to infect household members who were actually exposed to them during their infectious periods.
It’s actually a study of transmission within households, but it concludes:
The relatively high infectivity of children in households should be considered carefully when making decisions around school reopenings, as infected children can pass the virus to their family members. Finally, given the vulnerability of infants to infection, their caregivers should be prioritised for vaccination.

@CaughtInTheCovid

But *@gallbladderpain* why is it unsustainable? Community rates are dropping and significant numbers of vulnerable adults are now vaccinated. These numbers will go up and up and already we can see that the vast majority of those likely to get severely ill and need hospitalisation are vaccinated and therefore pressure on the nhs is easing. This will get better not worse. So if all of this is about protecting the nhs and vaccines are helping why can’t schools open? We aren’t in the pre Christmas situation.

Oh well yeh we could open them as normal for all the healthy kids and all the healthy families because it doesn't matter if it spreads like wildfire then they won't be affected will get mild illness etc. We have only vaccinated groups 1-4 there is adults in groups beneath that who are clinically vulnerable but not ECV we haven't even started on that group yet and those who have already been vaccinated aren't fully vaccinated are they...they've had one dose and won't be getting the next one until April time following the 12 weeks. Then there is children who are CEV and CV and have not yet been vaccinated at all.

@HalfPastThree

Kids are now the most likely to bring it into a household now. The biggest vectors.

Complete nonsense

There is lots of evidence on transmission in children - quite a lot here dontforgetthebubbles.com/evidence-summary-paediatric-covid-19-literature/

There was a worry at one point that the new strain was relatively more transmissible in children, but it turned out not to be the case

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n383

Not according to the British Medical Journal as of 5 days ago

Why don't you just suck up the homeschooling and wfh then because the same way you say that is not sustainable it is not sustainable to open schools without further mitigation for everyone.
But hey as long as you are OK and not having to do unsustainable homeschooling and work from home

How kind and understanding.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

*Why don't you just suck up the homeschooling and wfh then because the same way you say that is not sustainable it is not sustainable to open schools without further mitigation for everyone. But hey as long as you are OK and not having to do unsustainable homeschooling and work from home*

How kind and understanding.

Well those advocating for full reopening regardless of anything else as long as their kids are at school aren't kind or understanding of keeping the rest safe as well so I don't know why you would expect me to be understanding. I've been doing it for a year and I can still see that safer reopening of schools for all is preferable But don't worry i will carry on doing it because my 'unhealthy' child and their healthy siblings aren't as worthy of an education as the rest who will only get a cold when it spreads through schools.

Homeschooling and wfh is unsustainable, at least for young children. We should be paying parents a salary to homeschool so they can either take unpaid leave from their jobs or outsource to external tutors/babysitters.

Its unsustainable in the long term yes. Is it unsustainable for an extra 3 weeks until Easter or by reopening on a rota basis on 8th March....I'm sure most people would manage

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(Apologise for the interruption. Sitting on my hands wasn't working)

@MessAllOver

Homeschooling and wfh is unsustainable, at least for young children. We should be paying parents a salary to homeschool so they can either take unpaid leave from their jobs or outsource to external tutors/babysitters.

Brilliant idea. I'm a secondary science teacher with 3 young children at home. Currently teaching live to timetable while ignoring my own kids. Their school was only accepting kids whose carers work outside the home.

Well those advocating for full reopening regardless of anything else as long as their kids are at school aren't kind or understanding of keeping the rest safe as well so I don't know why you would expect me to be understanding

Even if schools open staggered or not for another 6 months it won't be "safe" for CEV children will it?

I've been doing it for a year and I can still see that safer reopening of schools for all is preferable

Doing what?

But don't worry i will carry on doing it because my 'unhealthy' child and their healthy siblings aren't as worthy of an education as the rest who will only get a cold when it spreads through schools

Nobody has said that! But realistically what do you want? Because covid isn't going to go away and will be a risk to your child. If we partially reopen schools, it will be a risk for your child to attend. If we wait 6 months, it'll still be a risk for your child won't it?

I understand where you're coming from, and I do support a safer 're opening but the reality is that there will be a line.

I can never tell if you're going to agree with me, or berate me, truely. It's a bit of a rollercoaster.

Lovely kitten though.

I'm also not completely clear what "safe" means in schools - it feels like the wrong question. There's no such thing as 100% safe.

I would ask: "Given the way in which we could reasonably open schools tomorrow, with appropriate safety measures, do the harms of keeping them closed outweigh the risks of opening?"

Again - if children are such vectors of transmission why are the rates going down while nurseries are still open? Settings where there is virtually a zero chance of social distancing?

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum

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(Apologise for the interruption. Sitting on my hands wasn't working)

❤️

If we think teachers and classroom assistants should be paid, why shouldn't parents also be paid? They're taking on work which would normally be done by schools. Why should they work for free?

@Wherediditgo Did you miss that most other children (particularly secondary aged) are not in school. Of course rates have gone down. 🤦🏻‍♀️

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Well those advocating for full reopening regardless of anything else as long as their kids are at school aren't kind or understanding of keeping the rest safe as well so I don't know why you would expect me to be understanding

Even if schools open staggered or not for another 6 months it won't be "safe" for CEV children will it?

I've been doing it for a year and I can still see that safer reopening of schools for all is preferable

Doing what?

But don't worry i will carry on doing it because my 'unhealthy' child and their healthy siblings aren't as worthy of an education as the rest who will only get a cold when it spreads through schools

Nobody has said that! But realistically what do you want? Because covid isn't going to go away and will be a risk to your child. If we partially reopen schools, it will be a risk for your child to attend. If we wait 6 months, it'll still be a risk for your child won't it?

I understand where you're coming from, and I do support a safer 're opening but the reality is that there will be a line.

No it won't be safe but it will decrease the risk. Its not about making it risk free, that is unreasonable and impossible but it is much safer to mix in a small consistent bubble with 15 children by way of reducing contacts and allowing for social distancing amongst older age groups. (Mine are primary and I accept social distancing between the children is impossible and it is something I wouldn't want my young children to be forced to do in school anyways particularly as its the only place children can play together these days) but having less contacts of course REDUCES risk, at this stage it isn't about eliminating risk as we know that is impossible.

I dunno maybe some schools have small bubbles already and this is where people are getting crossed wires on the reopening of schools with smaller classes but ours certainly does not.

I've been homeschooling and WFH 2 primary age children since the end of Feb 20.

Once the vast majority of the population has been vaccinated atm its only 15 million partially vaccinated I think ? Once that number increases into all adult groups which potentially won't take long because the vaccine roll out has been successful and fast then in turn (hopefully based on early indications) community transmission as a whole will decrease therefore reducing the risk for everyone and at that stage then there should in theory be no issues with full class sizes

@MessAllOver

Homeschooling and wfh is unsustainable, at least for young children. We should be paying parents a salary to homeschool so they can either take unpaid leave from their jobs or outsource to external tutors/babysitters.

I agree. And @gallbladderpain I know so many parents on the edge and a few extra weeks will be devastating. I’m not trying to say your family don’t deserve education and I’m sorry you have a vulnerable child the last year must have been so hard. But soon we will get to the tipping point where the benefits to the many will outweigh the risk to the few (if your child requires healthcare presumably they will long term benefit from the economy being booster by lifted restrictions which funds the nhs).

@Wherediditgo

Again - if children are such vectors of transmission why are the rates going down while nurseries are still open? Settings where there is virtually a zero chance of social distancing?

Rates are going down while nurseries are still open because the number of people attending nursery represents a pretty small proportion of the population. However, there have been quite a few outbreaks in nurseries and primary schools since January and this is quite concerning given the much smaller numbers attending.

My teenage only child is on his knees following the extended isolation he's been subject to. He's unrecognisable.

We have to work so he's alone all day.

He needs his peers. He's biologically programmed to be with other people not his old mum.

The damage this is causing in his case is immense and he's not alone.

[quote HercwasanEnemyofEducation]@Wherediditgo Did you miss that most other children (particularly secondary aged) are not in school. Of course rates have gone down. 🤦🏻‍♀️[/quote]
No, I did not miss that. No need for the passive aggressive emoji either.

I’m asking, and have asked before on this thread (and had no response) genuinely... why are nurseries open then? Yes, huge numbers of children aren’t in school right now. But of the ones still in early years settings, we are literally talking about cleaning bums/noses/giving cuddles etc - all indoors with no PPE. Surely that’s a much less Covid secure environment?

@CaughtInTheCovid

They will be on edge then and not be able to cope with the constant cycle of self isolation that they will no doubt be back into with full classes reopening so if they can't cope with a few extra weeks what will they do when the child is sent home to self isolate for 2 weeks at last minute notice again because that is always a possibility.

Have they gone to school in that time ? As you mentioned the 6 weeks which would indicate that they were in school September- December. If they weren't then I apologise but if they were then it is absolutely not comparable to a child who has literally not seen another child outside their household in a whole year.

Well if I was being really pedantic I’d say they have not seen anyone for 10 months then! They were in school in September and October and most of December. They were off in November due to half term and us all isolating because we caught Covid.

No play dates, no holidays, no family visits for a year.

I did say kids like mine. I don’t think I am by any means unique.

@MessAllOver

If we think teachers and classroom assistants should be paid, why shouldn't parents also be paid? They're taking on work which would normally be done by schools. Why should they work for free?

Parents aren't employees of the school.