Anti-lockdown campaigners using children to push their agenda

[noblegiraffe]

I can't be the only one disgusted with how certain groups are using faux concern about children to push the earliest dismantling of lockdown restrictions.

They are loudly catastrophising on the front pages of the press about our kids. The lost generation. £40,000 in lost earnings. Articles about schools full of traumatised kids suffering PTSD caused by lockdown.

And the solution they propose is always to re-open schools as early as possible. Even before March 8th. Regardless of covid.

Now, the situation in schools before Christmas was awful. Some areas of the country had less than 50% attendance due to the new variant ripping through secondary schools. Secondary school kids were the most infected subset of the population by far, and are now the second least infected subset of the population behind the 70+ age group after schools were closed, demonstrating that there was a massive problem with transmission in secondary schools. It wasn't good for pupils' mental health or education to be in a situation when they didn't know if they'd be in school or out at the drop of a hat. But before Christmas, there was complete media silence on the impact that this was having on children.

CAMHS has been devastated by cuts. Waiting lists are intolerable and children in dire need of support don't even qualify. Same for social care around vulnerable children.

Yet you won't hear these people clamouring for schools re-opening as soon as possible talking at all about how to improve safety measures in schools to prevent the scenario we had before Christmas happening again. You won't hear them demanding more funding for children's mental health services and for more support for social care services.

And the reason you won't hear that is that THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

The reason that they want schools re-opened as quickly as possible is because the message was that schools had to open first.

They can't get what they really want open (everything else) until schools are open, hence the massive focus on schools and how terrible things are for children.

This catastrophising isn't good for parents or kids. It's scaremongering and unhelpful.

I know that there are kids (and parents) really struggling with their mental health and worried about their education. Blaring out messages about how terrible things are and how they will never recover because you want to hype up the message about schools going back is irresponsible and sickening.

We need sensible and calm conversations about how to support children and parents. We need funding for schools and massive investment in support services. We need a long-term program of recovery, not 9 months of a Catch-Up Tsar and quick fixes. We need a measured and sensible approach to schools re-opening that won't see kids in and out and in and out due to lack of mitigation measures causing rampant covid spread (particularly with the new variant).

We need these anti-lockdown campaigners to shut up and stop dominating the narrative.

You are saying that teachers should not go back to proper classes until your list of requests has been met, and this includes more investment in buildings to make them fit your definition of safety. This is as well as the continuing successful rollout of the vaccination programme and therefore the reduction of the scale of infections and hospitalisations? I imagine very few people don't want better designed buildings, more space, better ventilation. I should think everyone would be all for these things. How long will this take to achieve, and what happens to children and their wellbeing in the meantime?

I’ve long wondered this whenever I’ve seen ‘safer/more spacious/better ventilated buildings’ on the list of teacher demands. Surely in many cases this will mean the wholesale rebuilding of schools? Given that it once took an entire summer holiday to paint the dining hall at one school I worked in, surely a massive national rebuilding/refurbishing program would take months if not years? The idea of schools being closed to most children for that long is unthinkable.

Erm, my dd has had it twice, what makes you think they can't?
Of course she has.

Plus, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, just the propaganda that you'll not get it as bad

Propaganda? You don't believe the scientists that created it?
I think parents should have a choice, if they want to gamble long covid for their kids they can send them back.
If they don't then they can stay at home

You've always had that choice. De register your child.

Plus, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, just the propaganda that you'll not get it as bad

By propaganda you mean clinical trials, studies and evidence based science no?

@TrustTheGeneGenie

You can get it more than once. How do you not know this?

It's extremely rare though isn't it.

Not that rare. Fully documented cases are very rare, but that’s because the bar is set incredibly high. Both samples (from the first and subsequent infection) have to have genomic sequencing to prove it’s a different infection. Most swabs are not kept, so most would fall at this hurdle. In some cases they go further: one of the US cases had to have a DNA test to prove he was the same person.

@TrustTheGeneGenie

Not necessarily, we just don't have much data on it yet. Anec-data seems to suggest it's not rare at all...

Ah yes. Ever reliable anec data from people certain they had in in March etc. Sure.

And then of course there's the mutations.

Yes, and there's tweakable vaccines.

What do you suggest? Because mutations will always be a possibility. So shall we never 're open just in case?

Well, my anec-data is from a nurse who has tested positive twice, but even disregarding this and everyone else who has tested positive twice, we still don't have any proof that you're immune once you've had it.

These 'tweakable' vaccines are interesting. AstraZenica just announced it will take six months to 'tweak' it against the SA variant. By that time there will be something else.

And no, nobody is suggesting never open. They're saying that it should be done carefully, slowly and cautiously with mitigation. Opening up with a Boris 'Big Bang' (urgh) massively increases the risk of uncontrolled spread and vaccine escape? Why are people so opposed to controlling the spread when schools reopen?

What about if we did the same as Scotland and allowed children the right to play together outdoors in small groups? That seems a win win for everyone.

So not really any evidence but apparently not that rare. I see.

I'll wait for the hard evidence if it's all the same.

And if that's the case what's the point in vaccinating?

@Ahmnotacat
Well according to the BMJ there have been 31 confirmed cases of reinfection worldwide. Have you seen studies that are showing much higher rates of confirmed cases of reinfection? Genuinely interested, and I will resist being as rude as you have been.

Why are people so opposed to controlling the spread when schools reopen?
How did you come to that conclusion? I'm not opposed to it...

@Itsjustricemichael

What about if we did the same as Scotland and allowed children the right to play together outdoors in small groups? That seems a win win for everyone.

Because it's not really about the children.

@Emilyontmoor - you sound like a fantastic parent. I think it's so true that our responses to this crisis are so important - if we can model coping skills and help our kids recognise that life is bloody tough at times but they will get through it, that's huge.
My children lost a sibling when they were young so we had to be so mindful of how we framed that and the way we moved forward as a family. We sought expert help to do this and it was really hard but I feel my kids have another perspective on life which is not all bad. They've witnessed something terrible happening but also us all surviving and ultimately flourishing.
What I'm trying to say is I don't think our children are all "broken" for ever. Hopefully, most will be fine in the long run and those who need extra support will get it. Thank you - I liked your post ⚘

I’ve written out and deleted about a million replies.

Totally agree with @noblegiraffe.

I can’t understand why we can’t do some kind of rota system for a while - everyone gets some time in school, time with their peers, support from school etc... but allows for SD etc reducing community transmission and therefore reduces pressure on the NHS.

I dont find elderly people dying from covid as a travesty. Sad for the families, sure but incomparable to babies dying. One group has lived their whole lives (probably past the average life expectancy), the other hasnt even started.

How anyone can claim all lives are equal I dont know, because they arent. My nan is 91 next month, I'd be upset if she dies she is my nan after all. But I woukdnt say it is a tragedy. However my friend who lost her 11 month old due to a genetic disease/mutation, now that was an absolute travesty and I cried for her and her baby.

Children need to be out mixing & catching illnesses to train their immune systems, that is why it's always known the kids are germ breeders. If you didnt know this, or dont like this, I would suggest teaching isnt for you.

Children need to be out mixing & catching illnesses to train their immune systems, that is why it's always known the kids are germ breeders. If you didnt know this, or dont like this, I would suggest teaching isnt for you.

When, before this pandemic, have you ever heard teachers complaining about schools being a hotbed of viruses? I haven't. But they're bloody well allowed to complain about a virus that could leave them long-term disabled or kill them. Or spread out into the community and do the same. That doesn't mean teaching isn't for them, it means they're decent humans.

@Moondust001

Funny thing is that I have noticed a great many pro-lockdown people also using children as their argument - and notably the OP, who posts repeated hysterical posts about how children / everyone will die if schools don't close. I doubt they could conduct a sensible or calm conversation if they tried.

Now that’s simply not true. The OP has consistently argued for schools to be safe and open, and has given sensible methods for doing this.

Trust 1.5m Londoners had antibodies by June, yet it didn’t stop the new variant sending the case rates through the roof in December. I still have my March antibodies but lots of people I know no longer have them, and when one had their second test, not only did they no longer have antibodies but they did have the antibodies that your body makes when fighting the disease suggesting they had just had it again. Immunity is simply not understood yet.

@Ahmnotacat thank you x

Except a lot of them are immune now and the vulnerable people at home have been vaccinated.
Data has shown again and again antibodies in the general population at around 10%. Even accounting for a higher proportion of school children having had it, and for a higher number just now after a large second wave, no way would that rise to a sufficiently high level of immunity.
Secondly: only vulnerable groups 1-4 will be three weeks post jab by 8 March (three weeks is needed post jab for immunity). Groups 5-9 will not have that by then. Most patients in ICUs are not from groups 1-4.
Also, you can be extremely ill with COVID and have long term consequences from it without being hospitalised, let alone in ICU.
Estimates of numbers suffering from long covid range from 1 in 4 to 1 in 10, but it is still a very high number when you take into account a population of 60 million. We could be left with 6 million people long term ill, which is a frightening prospect for a society and for a healthcare service.
That’d before we even get into mutations and new variants, which are a whole new can of worms.

@FrippEnos

HesterShaw1 It seems to me that it's a bit disingenuous to accuse people only caring about mental health of children and the underinvestment in schools in the last year.

So where were all these people that cared so much?

I used to teach (and incidentally it was so full on that I barely had time to scratch my arse let alone spend my days creating posts on MN).

Wow, give yourself the martyr of the year award.

That was the main point of my post, after all . That I was a martyr to my teaching. Well done you.

Data has shown again and again antibodies in the general population at around 10%

And hasn't data shown again and again that antibodies are not the only source of immunity? And that many people do not even get the disease at all, let alone ill?

Emilyontmoor and GinJeanie, very well put.

Ginjeanie Thanks but not sure they would agree with you I am sorry for your loss. My best friend died when her children were young, and we had a lot of help from a charity in helping them deal with that. They highlighted research that showed that many children who had experienced trauma in their life, like the early death of a parent, go on to achieve great things like becoming leaders, more often than the rest of their peers. The value of emotional intelligence is now appreciated as an important quality in business leaders.

@ineedaholidaynow

Do those parents know how many non elderly people are in hospital with COVID?

Given that 89% of people who are at risk of death have now been vaccinated (well, offered) and 99% will be by the end of group 6, I think we are in a much safer position. I don’t think it’s helpful to compare to November/December when barely anyone was vaccinated.