We cannot cancel life, to preserve every life

[Slytherin]

I actually find myself agreeing with a Tory for once...we’ve given up so much and the goalposts keep moving, yes it’s an unpredictable situation, but it’s also unsustainable long term. The idea that this summer will be possibly worse than last summer makes zero sense, when we have a vaccine roll out that far exceeds any other nation (except Israel) currently.
First it was let’s get the elderly and vulnerable vaccinated, then it was let’s get the over 50s vaccinated, now we’ve got members of SAGE suggesting restrictions have to continue until everyone, including children are vaccinated and beyond, because of the possibility of new variants. Professor John Edmunds said some would have to stay “forever” last night on Peston.

We must at some point live with an element of risk. I’m in no way suggesting we lift lockdown yet, but suggesting that things won’t have much improved by the summer, is, in my opinion encroaching into dangerous territory.

The government were over promising before, now they’re under promising. There’s got to be a middle ground, people’s mental health cannot sustain this level of pessimism and not having a single thing to look forward to. Everything gets dangled like a carrot, then taken away at the last minute. It’s beyond cruel.

Then it’s the mixed messages, Matt Hancock telling us he’s going on a summer holiday to Cornwall and he’s all booked up and Grant Shapps then telling nobody to even consider booking a holiday abroad or domestically this summer.

Yes, I support restrictions to save lives and support the NHS, but I don’t support the way the government are handling this once again. And I don’t support these restrictions indefinitely, especially when the majority of the at risk groups have been vaccinated.

www.channel4.com/news/we-cannot-cancel-life-to-preserve-every-life-tory-mp-sir-charles-walker-on-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR2RnQNKwJoQ4FSBxT9oTbwbFOCTWcIU9wD9WdYkTEA2sVlJ1posWZAfmsU

Yeah as pp says... tbh we’ve lost loads here. I do feel bad (regardless of what shite government says) about families who have lost loved ones because to grieve when it’s something so sudden, that you can’t fight or plan for, and you don’t get to say proper goodbye...most of ours got taken in ambulance and that was it. And then it’s a national news story played out every, single, day. Those poor families :(

I actually lost a dear friend to COVID when she was doing chemo. That’s the first time I’ve ever typed it out, it’s too hard to think of. We never got to say goodbye, ever her partner didn’t properly and her kids are under 10. Fucking wretched fucking virus.

So I totally get on board with opening up, then feel sick for people like her. She had totally sheltered too.

I’m starting to feel really quite hopeless about the whole thing now. As most people, I am really struggling with this half life existence that seems to stretch on and on ad nauseam with no end in sight. We have vaccines, things should be more positive, but the govt seem more negative and heavy handed than ever.

I certainly don’t think we should just open everything up and go back to normal right now - that would be foolish (and I feel like the way the first lockdown ended and virtually everything opened up at once was a big mistake) - but the talk of things still being extremely restricted in summer/autumn even after vaccinations is enough to tip me over the edge.

I’m not expecting things to have improved tomorrow - but every time there’s a hint Of positivity or things going the right way someone pipes up with ‘but the variants!’ ‘But the mutations!’ ‘But long covid!’ It’s interminable.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is. My two toddlers have played with 2 other children the whole bloody time (as they’re not in nursery). I fear for their development and their social skills. I fear for my mental health which was tenuous before all this happened. I worry for people whose jobs are at risk, who have been plunged into poverty or a mental health crisis, people who have delayed cancer treatment or are alone and isolated. I also don’t want lots of people to die unnecessarily from covid ... it just feels so bloody hopeless.

The other thing is all this new talk of ‘young healthy’ people in 20s/30s/40s making up a large part of hospital admissions - if you drill down into the stats they are still a very small percentage but it’s still alarming for someone (like me!) who’s disposed to anxiety. It just seems to be one thing after another. And as a PP says, if Middle Aged people (40-50 odd) are being hospitalised or dying
More than older groups now, it seems they’re screwed once lockdown ends since they won’t be getting vaccines for months ... whilst the 99 year olds will be protected even if they never leave their house...

Quite shocked that so many people “agree”

The reason we are in lockdown still is because there isn’t any space in the hospitals. If restrictions were lifted the virus would spread and there would be no capacity to treat people.

Surely all of the scientists in the world haven’t been working around the clock for the last year to create a vaccine if it wasn’t serious. What’s the point in the vaccine if you think we would be better off catching it?

What is that based on? The debunked youtube/facebook whack-job claims about suicide?

Um - personal experience? Listening to our children perhaps @LastTrainEast?

'Whilst younger people (and by younger I mean 60s/70s), people who would hope for another 20 years or more, are still at risk, and are dying in significant numbers?'

Have you actually seen the progress with vaccinations?

except many younger people who have survived are now ill with long covid

I suspect far more young people are suffering from significant mental health issues because of the situation than are suffering with long covid.

Agree with you OP.

I'm at my limit. I've never broken a rule but I can't live like this much longer. Life is so hard, so awful that I can't continue.

I'm just under 50. I don't want to continue like this until I've been vaccinated.

I want to have a life, and I'm happy to how a risk.

This thread is extremely interesting because you can see the tide turning against lockdown- imagine if the op had said this just a few weeks ago - I think there would be a different response

*take not how

@BouncyMonk

Throughout all this, I often go back to the words below from Justice Munby in a court of protection judgement. I think it sums up our collective situation perfectly. I’m miserable and it’s too high a price to pay.

The fact is that all life involves risk, and the young, the elderly and the vulnerable, are exposed to additional risks and to risks they are less well equipped than others to cope with. But just as wise parents resist the temptation to keep their children metaphorically wrapped up in cotton wool, so too we must avoid the temptation always to put the physical health and safety of the elderly and the vulnerable before everything else. Often it will be appropriate to do so, but not always. Physical health and safety can sometimes be bought at too high a price in happiness and emotional welfare. The emphasis must be on sensible risk appraisal, not striving to avoid all risk, whatever the price, but instead seeking a proper balance and being willing to tolerate manageable or acceptable risks as the price appropriately to be paid in order to achieve some other good – in particular to achieve the vital good of the elderly or vulnerable person's happiness. What good is it making someone safer if it merely makes them miserable?”

Superb quote

I notice PPs clear and sensible post about societal infrastructure has been conveniently just ignored...bit inconvenient to read and ponder over? I guess some people need there to be 'another way' so badly that even when it is explained how this cannot work for logical reasons, it cannot be taken in.

@LastTrainEast given that the vast majority of people in their 20s/30s who contract coronavirus will be fine and won't even have long covid, I standby my statement that for across the age group, lockdowns will be more harmful.

Yet another news article today on BBC about young people's finances and jobs being affected the worst. The mental health effects (btw- at what point did I mention suicide? Although yes I do believe rates will increase- this is something that will play out over the coming years and not immediately). The depression, loss of opportunity, effects on their children's education and mental health, income, ability to own a home, retirement age and tax increases. These are things far more likely to affect young people as a group than long covid.

I agree OP. I had the same discussion with my mum tonight in the phone, sadly she doesn’t agree with me and feels this should continue until we are all vaccinated. I told her that I won’t be complying with the rules if it carries on through summer and she got quite angry with me. I have booked a uk break (camping) and I am holding out hope we will be able to go, if not I will likely wild camp with friends even if we are told not too. If all vulnerable are vaccinated and soon to be every one over 50 vaccinated I can’t see why some restrictions can be lifted, similar to last summer. I’m happy to distance from people but not happy to be restricted in travelling in the uk and not being able to meet up with friends/family outside.

We can’t continue to keep everything closed, we can’t continue to keep schools closed and we can’t continue to be kept away from friends and family. Too many are dying from other things caused by covid rather than from covid, suicide, people waiting for cancer treatment and diagnosis, people putting off going to hospital because of the fear and not wanting to put NHS under extra pressure. It’s just crazy and it’s effecting people in so many ways other than actually catching covid.

@AshMeri

This thread is really disturbing to read. I think they've been very clear recently and I'm no fan of Boris and his crew. The numbers of people in hospital with Covid at the moment are still higher than all the other peaks, the waiting lists for surgery, for cancer treatments, are at their longest in many years and this is because so many are in hospital with Covid. These measures are to get the numbers in hospital with Covid down so that the NHS can function. Not on the basis of some moral or ethical argument. Practicalities. That's the rationale behind the vaccination priority groups too. The effects of this will be felt for years to come by anyone who needs medical treatment and that really frightens me.

Very disturbing. I’m hoping a fair few are bots or stooges to rile the masses. Otherwise the outside just became a Stephen king plot 😂

Yeah I don’t like the “I’m not responsible for others” line, cos you are. That’s society. If like my mate you go through chemo and are vulnerable you’d be changing your tune and asking us all to help, when we could shrug and say no.

I don’t want more lockdowns so we have to do this properly til I’d say over 70s and front line - including teachers - have their double vaccinations. I’d rather err on the side of caution tbh

Agree

The idea that this summer will be possibly worse than last summer makes zero sense

Does anyone have a link for this bit?

I read it somewhere earlier too but can't remember where and can't find it

@Allmyarseandpeggymartin

This thread is extremely interesting because you can see the tide turning against lockdown- imagine if the op had said this just a few weeks ago - I think there would be a different response

This is a very small cluster of people talking here

But people aren’t getting the reason why someone at 84 is having the vaccine ahead of the young. It’s because our NHS isn’t coping with the increased hospital admissions of old people with covid. The majority of younger people don’t get ill, and don’t need hospital treatment. We need to vaccinate the ones who are causing our NHS to be on the verge of collapse. People still need operations and major surgery and cancer treatments, which are on hold as hospitals don’t have the capacity to treat anyone other than covid patients.

There was a really good piece on the Moral Maze on BBC4 a few months ago about this. Basically in the past when we were all religious, death was seen as a positive thing when we finally attained heaven but now death is seen as negative and we fight to preserve life above everything else. Even though life expectancy in the UK for men is currently 83, we view it as catastrophic when a 90 year old dies with COViD, when previously we would’ve simply celebrated their life. It asked whether we have our priorities right and where it will end. It was really thought provoking.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

Until it's your own family member

Oh behave with this emotional blackmail bullshit.

There won't be a person on here who hasn't lost a loved one. Covid doesn't trump everything else. It just doesn't.

except it is!

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'Whilst younger people (and by younger I mean 60s/70s), people who would hope for another 20 years or more, are still at risk, and are dying in significant numbers?'

Have you actually seen the progress with vaccinations?

Um yes? Doesn't mean that I think they went in the right order in the first place.

My parents are still weeks/months away from receiving theirs. Whilst my elderly grandparent has already had theirs. I don't think it's right but hey, I don't make the decisions. I'm allowed my opinion though.

@Chosennone

I am starting to sway. I'm confused. Is there something they're not telling us? Is this going to affect kids more than they're letting on?

At first I was willing to comply totally to keep older and vulnerable safe. When groups 1-5 and definitely up to group 9 are vaccinated, why can't we ease up up morenor less completely? The line is fine and the balancing act precarious. But I'm scared I'm missing something.

The issue seems to be the more we let it spread, the more new variants we will get, and some may be vaccine resistant. So we can't ease up completely lest we end up with another variant that is vaccine resistant and right back at square one (or worse if it turns out to be a version that is also more transmissable, or affects people more severely).

I can't understand why, now they're (sort of) closing the borders (could do better, obvs) and have got us in lockdown why they wouldn't aim for zero covid. We were at the levels last summer where we could have achieved that if the borders had been closed then. We're going to a lot of trouble now for them to ease off a bit too quickly and let it all take off again.

If anyone wanted to read up on what a zero covid strategy looks like there are some good articles here, it wouldn't mean lockdown forever (in fact it should mean freedom, faster, apart from for foreign travel)
blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/27/covid-19-how-to-break-the-cycle-of-lockdowns/
tribunemag.co.uk/2021/01/the-vaccine-is-not-enough-we-need-a-zero-covid-strategy?fbclid=IwAR0msDTVkI7fbR_F55ZLhCLh6J7DoYZDUZ3ENTicyoLHbJybxJWIpqfYVtM

The society thing works both ways though. The PP talking about "oh can't you live without starbucks and pubs you losers" seems to have missed the point that those places provide employment. Which provides tax. To fund the NHS. If we don't open up soon, there will be no NHS because despite the way the government is behaving, there isn't actually a magic money tree they've just discovered

@Livelovebehappy
It could be explained to them 100 times and they wouldn't take it in. However clearly presented the logic and facts. They can't fathom that this is (sadly) the better of two evils.