We cannot cancel life, to preserve every life

[Slytherin]

I actually find myself agreeing with a Tory for once...we’ve given up so much and the goalposts keep moving, yes it’s an unpredictable situation, but it’s also unsustainable long term. The idea that this summer will be possibly worse than last summer makes zero sense, when we have a vaccine roll out that far exceeds any other nation (except Israel) currently.
First it was let’s get the elderly and vulnerable vaccinated, then it was let’s get the over 50s vaccinated, now we’ve got members of SAGE suggesting restrictions have to continue until everyone, including children are vaccinated and beyond, because of the possibility of new variants. Professor John Edmunds said some would have to stay “forever” last night on Peston.

We must at some point live with an element of risk. I’m in no way suggesting we lift lockdown yet, but suggesting that things won’t have much improved by the summer, is, in my opinion encroaching into dangerous territory.

The government were over promising before, now they’re under promising. There’s got to be a middle ground, people’s mental health cannot sustain this level of pessimism and not having a single thing to look forward to. Everything gets dangled like a carrot, then taken away at the last minute. It’s beyond cruel.

Then it’s the mixed messages, Matt Hancock telling us he’s going on a summer holiday to Cornwall and he’s all booked up and Grant Shapps then telling nobody to even consider booking a holiday abroad or domestically this summer.

Yes, I support restrictions to save lives and support the NHS, but I don’t support the way the government are handling this once again. And I don’t support these restrictions indefinitely, especially when the majority of the at risk groups have been vaccinated.

www.channel4.com/news/we-cannot-cancel-life-to-preserve-every-life-tory-mp-sir-charles-walker-on-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR2RnQNKwJoQ4FSBxT9oTbwbFOCTWcIU9wD9WdYkTEA2sVlJ1posWZAfmsU

@bumbleymummy if there’s been a deficit for years then how have we managed to pay out all the money for years? I can’t see the tap switching off now. I could be wrong.

House prices are still soaring so we’re not exactly in a recession (yet)

@MonsterMash2210

I am close to my limit, I cannot continue like this for much longer.

I don’t know where my limit is, but the thought of this being life for years rather than months. I can’t do years of this.

Months maybe.

Not years.

There has to be some kind of end to all this or else what is the point.

same , iv seem people commenting on social media that they cant be bothered to have the vaccine if they are still going to keep us under lockdown and coming out with one excuse after another about why this restriction and that has to stay and i cant say i blame people for thinking like this either , i seriously cant be bothered to have it myself if its not going to change anything , its pointless

For me the equation is quite simple what is more important;

A) My life, a woman in her 60s who could expect another 20 years under normal circumstances

Or

B) My children and grandchilden losing years of (normal) life, e.g.work, education, days out, holidays, experiences, relationships etc. Time they will never get back.

B wins for me every time and I'm sorry that you younger people have been made to suffer and miss out on so much over the last year. It is not you that are the selfish ones.

[quote mamaatthegym]@bumbleymummy restrictions will have long been lifted before we run out of tax money 😅 our economy has taken a huge hit yes but it’s nowhere near dysfunctional. A lot of jobs are being done from home.[/quote]
We ran out of tax money months ago. We’re deep in overdraft now.

@GoldenOmber no I'm not. I'm mentioning those who think that most of the lockdown has been futile and they REFUSE to carry on for a second longer
The ones who are going to protest
Those who still think a car crash is comparable to covid.

[quote Carrotcakeforbreakfast]@GoldenOmber no I'm not. I'm mentioning those who think that most of the lockdown has been futile and they REFUSE to carry on for a second longer
The ones who are going to protest
Those who still think a car crash is comparable to covid.[/quote]
And I disagree with those people too, but here is what the OP said:

“We must at some point live with an element of risk. I’m in no way suggesting we lift lockdown yet, but suggesting that things won’t have much improved by the summer, is, in my opinion encroaching into dangerous territory.”

I’m
Following rules now - it’s hard not to anyway as nothing is open etc - but once all
Oldies and vulnerable have been vaccinated x 2 I say there has to be reverting back to some sense of normality. Mental health services will be swamped - am already seeing how it’s affected my DCs mentally (and one of them got covid). Their late teenhood has been snatched away - they were both having a great time w their friends when Covid hit - finally finding their feet w their ‘tribe’.

@BlowDryRat

My main worry now that the roadmap on the 22nd will be another Christmas. I don't want exact dates of when restrictions will be lifted. A 'plan' like that isn't worth the paper it's written on. What I want is a set of criteria that the government will use to guage when it's safe to lift each restriction, the order in which restrictions will be lifted, and a weekly update on where we are vs the criteria. I also want to know that the entire set of restrictions is being reviewed holistically, not just based on Covid figures.

E.g. the NHS can cope with an infection rate of 100 per 100000. When we get to that rate for a sustainable period of 14 days, we will lift domestic restrictions in this order, with each restriction lifted 4 weeks after the previous one to test the numbers:

• schools return
• rule of 6 household mixing
• hospitality and leisure
• domestic travel for leisure purposes
• international business travel to countries with a 100 per 100000 or lower case rate
• international leisure travel to the same countries
• etc.

If rates increase to 150 cases per 100000, then the next restriction lift will not happen until rates stabilise and we can check that cases aren't resulting in an increase in hospital admissions (as we expect from the vaccine roll out resulting in less severe symptoms). This will take a further 4 weeks. If at that point the NHS is coping then we will proceed with lifting the next restriction.

Social distancing measures and mandatory face coverings as implemented last autumn will remain in place for the rest of the year. This will be reviewed once the vaccine roll-out to all eligible adults is complete.

/mock-up roadmap

That's all I want to see. Not a bunch of promises that I can't trust.

I agree with the idea of specifying criteria but I don't think they should be based on cases. They should be based on hospitalisations. The vaccine should reduce the numbers at risk of hospitalisation so having higher numbers of mild cases shouldn't be a problem.

I also think other restrictions could be lifted before schools eg outdoor activities, outdoor mixing in small groups, non contact sport etc. I think it would help a lot of people psychologically if those were permitted in the next couple of weeks. It would just feel like we're making progress and moving in the right direction.

Have any of the people discussing tax revenue taken time to sit back and think.

We are spending more and more of 'tax' money. On the same hand, businesses are earning less, people are earning less, and therefore paying less tax.

So it is a vicious spiral of debt.

Protecting the NHS is great, however, no money to fund it will make that task quite the challenge.

@Mischance

The problem lies in the mixed messages that the government has sent out from day one.

Ask any scientist and they have known from the start that we are in this for the long haul.

I wish the government had acted sooner on so many fronts - but above all else I wish they had been clear with everyone that this is not going to go away quickly and some aspects of this last year will have to become a way of life for the foreseeable future.

Their bumbling responses have been a disaster: failing to close borders in the first place; eat out to help out - how confusing was that?; back to school for one day because it is "safe" then closing schools the next day; test and trace - what a joke! - I could go on. And on.

But fundamentally they should have been saying - this is serious and we will have to adapt our way of life for a long time to come out the other side.

The scientists knew this and still know it - but the politicians mindset is not going to acknowledge this openly.

THIS ^

Ps: if it was just me & dh I’d say I can live with this for a lot longer, but not the DCs, no way.

@bellver888

Is that the bracket for life now then?

No money, no jobs, kids suffering, mental health’s in the toilet but as long as you’re not dead it’s fine

yes sadly it is this in a nutshell , as long as we dont catch covid and strain the nhs its all ok and for the greater good

[quote mamaatthegym]@bumbleymummy if there’s been a deficit for years then how have we managed to pay out all the money for years? I can’t see the tap switching off now. I could be wrong.

House prices are still soaring so we’re not exactly in a recession (yet)[/quote]
By getting into huge amounts of debt. We'll have to pay it all back eventually and large numbers of people sitting at home unemployed because so many businesses have collapsed after being closed for nearly a year is not going to help with that.

Many people are feeling like we will
Never be out. Even when all the adults are vaccinated in the UK, they will say, that’s fine but sorry- restrictions no mixing until the WHOLE WORLD has been vaccinated because of mutations coming in.
That will take years. Many years.
This is why people are panicking. Each possible ray of hope is squashed when we get closer, every time.

@VinylDetective was it years ago or months ago? I’ve been told two different things now.

If it’s years then I’d have a reason wonder why anything would change? If it’s indeed months then surely it would have been well on its way to being close to the danger zone before we even knew there was a pandemic...

Everyone wants a plan out of this mess but it is impossible to plan anything with certainty.

I honestly wonder what Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and Jonathon Van-Tam think about the "roadmap".

@GoldenOmber I don't think i specifically said OP did I?
I'm referring to all those (and there have been many) who want to end it right now and don't think we should have had them anyway.
The OP didn't come across as an armchair epidemiologist either
But lots on here have.

[quote mamaatthegym]@VinylDetective was it years ago or months ago? I’ve been told two different things now.

If it’s years then I’d have a reason wonder why anything would change? If it’s indeed months then surely it would have been well on its way to being close to the danger zone before we even knew there was a pandemic...[/quote]
We've been running out of money every year for years. So the deficit has been billions of pounds for years and is now at a record high. When Vinyl said we ran out of tax money months ago, she was probably talking about this financial year.

@StarCat2020

Everyone wants a plan out of this mess but it is impossible to plan anything with certainty.

I honestly wonder what Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and Jonathon Van-Tam think about the "roadmap".

I expect they all hate anything that looks like freedom.

[quote mamaatthegym]@VinylDetective was it years ago or months ago? I’ve been told two different things now.

If it’s years then I’d have a reason wonder why anything would change? If it’s indeed months then surely it would have been well on its way to being close to the danger zone before we even knew there was a pandemic...[/quote]
It makes no difference how long it is, you’re still wrong.

I honestly wonder what Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance and Jonathon Van-Tam think about the "roadmap"

I don't. They are purely concerned with case rates, hospitalisations and R numbers. The rest of the country is concerned with balancing economics, health, mental health, jobs, personal fulfilment and living life.

@fromdownwest

Have any of the people discussing tax revenue taken time to sit back and think.

We are spending more and more of 'tax' money. On the same hand, businesses are earning less, people are earning less, and therefore paying less tax.

So it is a vicious spiral of debt.

Protecting the NHS is great, however, no money to fund it will make that task quite the challenge.

Isn’t that why we’re in lockdown though. Assuming the idea is that we keep restrictions in place for now, hinder the spread, protect the NHS, so that we can lift restrictions and pick the economy back up before that happens?

It’s all very catch 22.

"Protect the NHS" is a fallacy.

This govt have always intended to sell it off as soon as they could - the pandemic has smoothed the way for them.

Govt ministers are complaining about the poor response of the NHS to the pandemic - it wasn't the MHS that responded poorly, it was Johnson and his cabal.

The NHS has been amazing!

@Quit4me

Many people are feeling like we will Never be out. Even when all the adults are vaccinated in the UK, they will say, that’s fine but sorry- restrictions no mixing until the WHOLE WORLD has been vaccinated because of mutations coming in. That will take years. Many years. This is why people are panicking. Each possible ray of hope is squashed when we get closer, every time.

this , im already believing that there is no hope , they have no intention of ever letting it get back to anywhere close to normal ,

@VinylDetective happy to be proved wrong, it’s what discussions are for.