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Original poster

We cannot cancel life, to preserve every life

999 replies

Slytherin · 11/02/2021 20:20

I actually find myself agreeing with a Tory for once...we’ve given up so much and the goalposts keep moving, yes it’s an unpredictable situation, but it’s also unsustainable long term. The idea that this summer will be possibly worse than last summer makes zero sense, when we have a vaccine roll out that far exceeds any other nation (except Israel) currently.
First it was let’s get the elderly and vulnerable vaccinated, then it was let’s get the over 50s vaccinated, now we’ve got members of SAGE suggesting restrictions have to continue until everyone, including children are vaccinated and beyond, because of the possibility of new variants. Professor John Edmunds said some would have to stay “forever” last night on Peston.

We must at some point live with an element of risk. I’m in no way suggesting we lift lockdown yet, but suggesting that things won’t have much improved by the summer, is, in my opinion encroaching into dangerous territory.

The government were over promising before, now they’re under promising. There’s got to be a middle ground, people’s mental health cannot sustain this level of pessimism and not having a single thing to look forward to. Everything gets dangled like a carrot, then taken away at the last minute. It’s beyond cruel.

Then it’s the mixed messages, Matt Hancock telling us he’s going on a summer holiday to Cornwall and he’s all booked up and Grant Shapps then telling nobody to even consider booking a holiday abroad or domestically this summer.

Yes, I support restrictions to save lives and support the NHS, but I don’t support the way the government are handling this once again. And I don’t support these restrictions indefinitely, especially when the majority of the at risk groups have been vaccinated.

www.channel4.com/news/we-cannot-cancel-life-to-preserve-every-life-tory-mp-sir-charles-walker-on-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR2RnQNKwJoQ4FSBxT9oTbwbFOCTWcIU9wD9WdYkTEA2sVlJ1posWZAfmsU

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 12/02/2021 00:04

@Flaxmeadow

bumbleymummy

Hopefully, but not everyone is vaccinated, the virus is always mutating and we don't know how long immunity lasts. Some say maybe only 6 months

Also, it's a new virus, they are still learning

Everyone doesn’t need to be vaccinated. Remember, we’re just supposed to be trying to take pressure off the NHS, not stop everyone from contracting it. The people most likely to end up in hospital are in the top 4 groups. See my previous comment wrt mutations.
Quit4me · 12/02/2021 00:04

@EarlGreywithLemon see their granddaughter do what exactly? Be locked in a house with no friends, education, fun, parties. See her become older with the most enjoyable things ripped out of her life for years and years?
Definition of selfish

Bewareoftheblob · 12/02/2021 00:06

I agree. But any over 50 death is written off as ‘oh well, they were old’ or if Cv, ‘oh well, they were obese or had type 1’ or anything else. And it is menopausal women that are likely to contract long covid - again, people of working age who should be an integral,part of the recovery process. And any younger life that is taken prematurely or is now blighted with disability (because that’s the way it’s looking), is also another contribution lost to economic recovery.

Sure, but there are just not that many of them, Not enough to justify the current response.

Watchingbehindmyhands · 12/02/2021 00:06

Oh stop. Viruses mutate all the time. This one mutates less than flu and we don’t all run around screaming every year about ‘the huge unknown’ of a flu mutation. It could just as easily mutate to something that’s even milder for the majority

Sure. And it might mutate into something far more difficult to handle. I don’t pretend to understand the odds but there is clear concern about vaccine resistance. If that were to happen, we’re back at square one. Stop mixing until it’s surpressed. The less mixing there is, the less opportunity there is for it to mutate. The more likelihood we have of successful track and trace suppressing future outbreaks before they become a problem. The more likelihood we have of living a normal life quickly. Or you can take a risk, and mutations the world over run the risk of under,I in four efforts so far.

Quit4me · 12/02/2021 00:07

@Flaxmeadow

It isn't just about the elderly. If this virus is allowed to run out of control, there won't be a health service for ANYONE.

Why don't people understand this?

Yes there will still be a health service. Medical staff have now all been vaccinated and even an overwhelmed NHS does not mean to healthcare for anyone?
Bewareoftheblob · 12/02/2021 00:08

Who cares about the huge unknown @Watchingbehindmyhands? Who wants to live like that?

Chessie678 · 12/02/2021 00:09

@EarlGreywithLemon

Baby groups are one thing but surely there is a limit to this logic somewhere? Would you be happy for your child never to go to an activity if you thought that this might avoid a death from infectious disease or never to attend school during flu season or never to socialise with another child. Humans spread infectious diseases by living in a normal and healthy way and always have.

Clearly the degree to which this is a risk is different with covid but, if we are to make this about saving lives rather than saving the NHS, the issue is the same. Every time your child does a normal activity there is a slight risk to someone else and that has always been true and probably always will be. You may well save a life from flu by severely curtailing your and your child's activities but at some point you would presumably decide that the price is too high.

Different people just have a different cut off point for the damage they are willing to do to themselves and their families for the sake of possibly reducing risk to strangers.

Bewareoftheblob · 12/02/2021 00:10

@Flaxmeadow

It isn't just about the elderly. If this virus is allowed to run out of control, there won't be a health service for ANYONE.

Most of us barely use the health service. Okay, I'm unlucky if my local hospital is overwhelmed by Covid when I have a car accident I guess, but it's a chance I'm willing to take.

Croleeen · 12/02/2021 00:11

Yes I totally agree. There needs to be discussion of at what point the benefit of lockdown is outweighed by the cost. We all want to save lives of the elderly and vulnerable, but not at the expense of the young and healthy. A couple more years of this will have a terrible effect on this generation, not just lost education and having to pay back all the debt but also it will be really hard to get a job. These things can't just be brushed under the carpet. We don't lock down for flu, although that kills thousands every year. At some point there has to be an acceptable point where we say we just have to live with Covid like we do flu and other infectious diseases. I'd be willing to sign a 'if I get it and I need hospital treatment just let me die' waiver in order to get back to normal.

Flaxmeadow · 12/02/2021 00:11

This one mutates less than flu and we don’t all run around screaming every year about ‘the huge unknown’ of a flu mutation.

It is not the flu

It could just as easily mutate to something that’s even milder for the majority.

Or something more deadly.
Feel lucky do you?

Quit4me · 12/02/2021 00:11

@hatebeak

There are some appalling people on here. Old people "have had their lives" and can just die so you can go to "baby sensory"? I know having small children makes you think you are the centre of the universe but people have no idea of what life is worth. I'm genuinely disgusted.
And I’m genuinely disgusted with you because you think the reason people are desperately angry is because they want to ‘go to baby sensory’ Get a grip on the devastating reality of this lockdown situation for a vast number of people. In many cases it’s also causing death or long term serious health problems
bumbleymummy · 12/02/2021 00:11

If that were to happen, we’re back at square one

No we’re not, we have several vaccines that can be ‘tweaked’ just like they do for the flu vaccine every year. We also have a significant proportion of the population who are immune through natural infection. We are much further along than we were last year so any suggestion that we have to be even more restricted this year, even with all the progress we’ve made, is ridiculous.

hatebeak · 12/02/2021 00:12

@DuchessofHastings1, it's a harsh truth, yes. Nobody's suggesting you can death-proof the world. But this is - and I think is now really stating the obvious - not flu. Tell me when you're 70, or 80, that you're gung-ho and raring to die for the sake of our noble economy. Over the top, pensioner! I really think that people would like to have some kind of Logan's Run system where the over 50s are just killed off. The lack of empathy is astonishing.

Watchingbehindmyhands · 12/02/2021 00:13

Sure, but there are just not that many of them, Not enough to justify the current response

‘Not that many’ people aged 50 to 65? Not that many people who are CV or CEV who are in work? Really? How many is ‘not that many’?

And how many of ‘not that many’ are experienced CEOs, executives, business builders, head teachers, consultants, scientists, engineers and other essential professionals? Do you really not value their contribution to economic recovery?

And when you say ‘them’, you realise that the person you’re addressing that to is an over 50, CV assistant head who teaches a shortage area subject and who has school. aged children who are dependent on me alone? And the small matter of a CV 12 year old or do none of us matter? Why is the life of a 40 year old who has never worked more important?

bumbleymummy · 12/02/2021 00:15

@Flaxmeadow

This one mutates less than flu and we don’t all run around screaming every year about ‘the huge unknown’ of a flu mutation.

It is not the flu

It could just as easily mutate to something that’s even milder for the majority.

Or something more deadly.
Feel lucky do you?

I didn’t say it was the flu. I pointed out that it actually mutates less than the flu does but we don’t freak out about potential flu mutations every year.

Re ‘feeling lucky’, yeah, I’m happy to take my chances with this one, thanks. It’s a hell of a lot less risky than other things I’ve done in my life (and I haven’t lived an overly risky life).

Watchingbehindmyhands · 12/02/2021 00:15

Who cares about the huge unknown @Watchingbehindmyhands? Who wants to live like that?

Are you really that obtuse? The huge unknown is why we are in this mess. Why not learn, suppress the issue and move forwards? Rather than hung ho, fuck it, it’ll be alright and then it’s not alright and younger people start dying in far bigger numbers? Or you can’t get treatment for a burst appendix and die?

GoldenOmber · 12/02/2021 00:16

I really think that people would like to have some kind of Logan's Run system where the over 50s are just killed off. The lack of empathy is astonishing.

I don’t want the over 50s to get killed off. I will trudge on through with restrictions while the over 50s get vaccinated. What I object to is the idea of continuing with restrictions long after they have been.

Flaxmeadow · 12/02/2021 00:17

I'm sure I read a news article, or saw on TV news, that "90% of people in ICU with covid were of working age" ?

GoldenOmber · 12/02/2021 00:18

Why not learn, suppress the issue and move forwards?

What do you think that looks like?

We can’t eliminate covid globally.
We can’t keep borders closed forever.
We can develop several highly effective vaccines and then tweak them to cover new variants as we already do with flu. Which is what we’re doing.

If you don’t think that’s enough for us to get back to normal, then what is?

Watchingbehindmyhands · 12/02/2021 00:19

Re ‘feeling lucky’, yeah, I’m happy to take my chances with this one, thanks. It’s a hell of a lot less risky than other things I’ve done in my life (and I haven’t lived an overly risky life)

It’s not just you, you know that right? Because the 4 weeks it took in December to get from 16k cases a day to 60k plus a day if it had gone on for much longer would have meant total collapse of the NHS? That means you get no treatment. For anything. And the numbers of people ill mean essential services start to stall. Followed by civil unrest and military deployment?

hatebeak · 12/02/2021 00:20

@Quit4me I didn't make that up, it was said. And what, so it's fine to kill off the old and the "weak"? Yes, I undestand the situation is desperate quite well. I understand the terrible need this is creating. But in two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right style, the answer can't be to kill off people who have "had their lives" when they quite clearly haven't. It's a mosntrous viewpoint, sorry.

bumbleymummy · 12/02/2021 00:20

@Watchingbehindmyhands

Sure, but there are just not that many of them, Not enough to justify the current response

‘Not that many’ people aged 50 to 65? Not that many people who are CV or CEV who are in work? Really? How many is ‘not that many’?

And how many of ‘not that many’ are experienced CEOs, executives, business builders, head teachers, consultants, scientists, engineers and other essential professionals? Do you really not value their contribution to economic recovery?

And when you say ‘them’, you realise that the person you’re addressing that to is an over 50, CV assistant head who teaches a shortage area subject and who has school. aged children who are dependent on me alone? And the small matter of a CV 12 year old or do none of us matter? Why is the life of a 40 year old who has never worked more important?

I think she means that not that many in that group end up hospitalised or dying.
Watchingbehindmyhands · 12/02/2021 00:22

What I object to is the idea of continuing with restrictions long after they have been

So many people hard of understanding. It is clear that the virus will not go away. Any opportunity it has to spread means it is given a chance to mutate. That’s one worldwide game of Russian Roulette. We might get lucky. We might not. It is clear that the more chances it has to mutate, the better off the whole world,I’d going to be. It might just fizzle out tomorrow. It probably won’t. We need to trust the science to get us back to normality. It might take longer than any of us like but that will be better than a mutation that goes beyond the vaccine’s reach.

bumbleymummy · 12/02/2021 00:23

@Watchingbehindmyhands

Re ‘feeling lucky’, yeah, I’m happy to take my chances with this one, thanks. It’s a hell of a lot less risky than other things I’ve done in my life (and I haven’t lived an overly risky life)

It’s not just you, you know that right? Because the 4 weeks it took in December to get from 16k cases a day to 60k plus a day if it had gone on for much longer would have meant total collapse of the NHS? That means you get no treatment. For anything. And the numbers of people ill mean essential services start to stall. Followed by civil unrest and military deployment?

She asked if I felt lucky. I answered. I’m well aware why we have restrictions right now, thanks.
Watchingbehindmyhands · 12/02/2021 00:25

@bumbleymummy. So you’re OK but fuck anyone else? Do you have w clue how long economic recovery would take if everything collapses? Worldwide?