We cannot cancel life, to preserve every life

[Slytherin]

I actually find myself agreeing with a Tory for once...we’ve given up so much and the goalposts keep moving, yes it’s an unpredictable situation, but it’s also unsustainable long term. The idea that this summer will be possibly worse than last summer makes zero sense, when we have a vaccine roll out that far exceeds any other nation (except Israel) currently.
First it was let’s get the elderly and vulnerable vaccinated, then it was let’s get the over 50s vaccinated, now we’ve got members of SAGE suggesting restrictions have to continue until everyone, including children are vaccinated and beyond, because of the possibility of new variants. Professor John Edmunds said some would have to stay “forever” last night on Peston.

We must at some point live with an element of risk. I’m in no way suggesting we lift lockdown yet, but suggesting that things won’t have much improved by the summer, is, in my opinion encroaching into dangerous territory.

The government were over promising before, now they’re under promising. There’s got to be a middle ground, people’s mental health cannot sustain this level of pessimism and not having a single thing to look forward to. Everything gets dangled like a carrot, then taken away at the last minute. It’s beyond cruel.

Then it’s the mixed messages, Matt Hancock telling us he’s going on a summer holiday to Cornwall and he’s all booked up and Grant Shapps then telling nobody to even consider booking a holiday abroad or domestically this summer.

Yes, I support restrictions to save lives and support the NHS, but I don’t support the way the government are handling this once again. And I don’t support these restrictions indefinitely, especially when the majority of the at risk groups have been vaccinated.

www.channel4.com/news/we-cannot-cancel-life-to-preserve-every-life-tory-mp-sir-charles-walker-on-lockdown?fbclid=IwAR2RnQNKwJoQ4FSBxT9oTbwbFOCTWcIU9wD9WdYkTEA2sVlJ1posWZAfmsU

What @PracticingPerson says

The situation is dynamic therefore 'goalposts' will move . No one was predicting the more virulent variant. Although most people only get it mildly enough some have long term issues. I had M.E. for 7 years after glandular fever- I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Its also about managing illness in businesses - people having to self isolate even when the risk of serious illness to them is small, means that businesses can be overwhelmed by staff shortages- such as the Police, food factories, fire service etc.
No one is going to be living like this 'forever'.
Look to the Spanish flu for an example though- several bouts of it then milder variants.
In any case for those wanting to mix because 'the vulnerable are all vaccinated'- there will be new vulnerable people all the time.. they wont even know it.

I work in travel, the past 2 days have devastated me. My job that has been hanging by a thread for the last year is now more or less done for. I have worked for the past year rebooking everyone's holidays, the rest of my team on furlough. Now with the media reporting headlines like "don't book holidays" we're done for. We could have survived with just redundancies on uk bookings only but now it seems the whole company will go. I'm so upset, I'm mid 30s travel is all I have ever known so it's not just my job I'll be losing it's my career. If they say absolutely no holidays all year it will be millions out of jobs, not just airline staff and call centre staff. All the uk holiday park staff, cleaners, ground staff at airports, restaurants and shops in airports, independent holiday let owners. Surely the impact that would have on unemployment is not worth the no travel ban?

I feel so upset there's no end in sight, they cannot keep us locked up like this.

NichyNoo it’s awful cos like my mate in chemo she was vulnerable to C19... they need to get on with treating cancer but even as they do they’re still some of the most vulnerable to C19. They need to do both things in parallel.... I’m really truly hoping the vaccines free up the nhs to get back to normal care

@Isolatedizzy

It isn't just about people dying though! If we open everything up lots of people will get sick all at once and the infrastructure of the country will be in danger of collapsing!

We need to keep supermarket shelves stocked, public services running and the lights on - never mind the NHS!

If workplaces have people off sick, people isolating, people on compassionate leave because they have lost a family member then they will struggle to provide the services they do! This is happening at some Royal Mail places and we're in lockdown! Schools were closing before Christmas because too many teachers were off sick!
Could you imagine if the National grid went down? That's when the Civil unrest would start - not because people are fed up being at home watching Netflix!
Do you really think this Govt care about old and vulnerable people dying? They do not, they have let it happen over the last 10 years due to austerity without blinking an eye!
This is about the infrastructure of the Country!
Yes lockdown is awful and it's killing people but the alternative is worse - that's the only reason this is continuing!

This.

Sainted NHS
Like the NHS is a person

You're right of course. It's all a conspiracy by 'them' to make you all miserable. There is no virus or maybe they made it just to annoy you.

You seem more obsessed than anyone else on here about conspiracies @LastTrainEast. Lazy reasoning.

We have been told it will all get better soon- again and again and again. How long are we expected to believe that? It is a lie that’s been told for a year. No conspiracy in realising that.

@isolateddizzy

No country, whatever its covid policy, has been unable to feed its population or had its lights turn off. It is actually very difficult to see a correlation between strength of lockdown and death rate in the West. Most Western countries have allowed significantly more household mixing than the UK, which is the thing people most want, and those countries have not noticeably done worse than the UK as a result - some have done better.

There is a school of thinking that lockdowns result in more people being ill at any one time because they lead to bigger second waves when you open up (as we have seen in the UK). We pushed our second wave into the winter which was predictable and foolish.

And our close contact isolation policy is resulting in large numbers of staff being absent (probably more than would be ill with covid even without lockdowns).

I don't buy that no lockdown would lead to everyone being ill at the same time in any case. Around 25% of the UK's population has had covid in the last year (a study estimated that 20% had had it by 31 December and it is likely that another 5% have now had it). No country has seen the whole or even the majority of its population infected whatever it has done. India has large regions where 50-60% of the population have been infected but cases there are now plummeting, possibly indicating the beginning of herd immunity. India hasn't been any less able to function than the UK as a result of covid and nor has any other developing country which has been unable to implement Western style lockdowns. The vast majority of working age people do not get sick enough with covid to pose a real threat to the functioning of society.

The argument about the NHS being overwhelmed is more credible (though it hasn't really functioned properly for the last year with lockdowns either) but I don't think there's any real evidence that society would stop functioning without lockdowns.

@wallyrag I’m also a long covid sufferer..almost 11 months and it’s not like post viral syndrome as some are saying, for me at least, it’s been a hellish time and I’m still not better and hoping I will be 🙏
However, I still agree with op, I’m aware the vast majority haven’t had a reaction as I have and have been barely ill and gotten over it. We cannot lock down for long covid as horrific as it can be for sufferers, people have to make their own decisions now. I have a bright, sociable, vibrant toddler who hasn’t seen anyone really for almost a year, a 71 year old father with dementia onset whose suffering huge mental health issues and numerous friends in dire financial straits.
I’m not sure what the hell us going on, if the government know something we don’t or they’re totally incompetent, but this is becoming too much..and to suggest it’s about being bored and wanting to go out to Starbucks as a previous poster said is downright wrong.

I feel that the problem lockdown has created for society will be with us for a long time. Of course I want to protect the vulnerable but sadly the vulnerable are not necessarily those at risk from Covid - the vulnerable include all those ill with those diseases that would have been caught with routine tests, those who are are now struggling with their mental health, those who are are now finding themselves with some type of abusive relationship, those now in poverty due to job loss . All those people might not have started out as vulnerable yet the lockdown has made them such.

@Sassenach85

I remember an experiment we were shown at uni and it involved regular members of the public inflicting pain on strangers. It was all about social pressures and rule followers. I can’t help but feel the govt are literally pushing us to see how far they can go. I don’t know where our snapping point is as a country ...

So.. do you think they invented the virus for this purpose?

And how many governments are ' in on it' After all there are lockdowns all around the world so it must be most of them. Was there a summit last year to plan all this?

I'd much rather sacrifice more now to get things more under control so that Track & Trace can actually stay on top of cases in future
They had months to get track and trace up and running. In the summer last year, cases were way down, they could have kept on top of it. Track and trace was not fit for purpose and didnt work. Why would it work now? How long should people put their lives on hold waiting for the government to get their shit together r

I think back to what people must have suffered during the blitz and the stoic reaction to this.

Said by someone who knows nothing about the reaction to the restrictions caused by the Blitz. There was an awful lot of kickback about, for example, the blackout requirements. Looting became a huge problem, and a lot of the children first evacuated in 1939 actually returned home by Christmas because people couldn't see the need, plus they were homesick and missing their friends...People were not all sitting stoically in their homes in the dark "doing their bit".

Someone tried to tell me that you are more likely to get killed by a bus than die of COVID. Again - really?

Statistically, possible, for many people, given the very skewed age profile of those who have died from Covid. Around 1,800 people die a year on the roads; there have been approx. 1,600 deaths from covid of those under 50 S(Source - ONS). So yes, if you are under 50, it is more likely you will die in a road accident.

Disgusting. Lockdown to reduce nhs pressure well haven't the goalposts changed and keep being changed. Vaccinations are pointless because what's changing, nothing. Sick of it being all covid nothing else seems matter anymore. NHS waiting lists off scale, kids not educated, jobs lost, sectors wiped out. Enough, now

@Thewiseoneincognito so true!

I watched Peston last night too and John Edmunds stated we can't unfortunately protect the vulnerable and let this rip because the younger members of the community will be in hospitals and the morgue. We have to all work together which is what New Zealand has done, accept that life may have to be put on hold because we didn't adopt the right approach 12 months ago but now realise we have to be really tough to crack it.

@gypsywater

Some posters on here clearly in favour of no medical treatment for the elderly and/or vulnerable (it's both really, isnt it, but easier to name a 91 year old of course) and not doing well at hiding their views. Nazi Germany is that way ---->

Yes perhaps those over 70 and CEV people shouldn't get treatment at all, keep it simple! The ones actually being vaccinated so hopefully they won't need treatment but oh no, the bright sparks on here think the young people should be vaccinated first. Jesus.

@Aixenprovence They have run out of oxygen in Manaus- relatives of people in hospital are trying desperately to source It themselves. It is dire.

omg that giant MP talking to the news presenter.
I mean, the visuals work, but Walker is so huge!!

People just don’t get it do they?
Saying lift the restrictions to treat more cancer patients, it doesn’t work that way. Covid is life and death in your face, you have to treat the people gasping for breath and having blood clots in front of you, that means you can’t treat the “well” cancer patient at home. It means if your child is in a car Accident the ambulance takes slightly longer to get there and the A&E doctors are doing their best but not maybe as quick. You catch covid in hospital and there are less doctors and nurses working due to long covid.
But your summer holiday is ok, as long as you don’t crash on the way there.

The thing with SAGE is they will not allow other scientists to know how they are getting their findings. So it’s going unchallenged and there is talk on Twitter about one man being able to determine how long we stay in for yet not allowing his studies to be critiqued.

The vaccines do stop major illness despite mutations and tbh that is all we should be aiming for not complete wipe out of the virus at the cost of complete destruction of society.

@Chosennone

I am starting to sway. I'm confused. Is there something they're not telling us? Is this going to affect kids more than they're letting on?

At first I was willing to comply totally to keep older and vulnerable safe. When groups 1-5 and definitely up to group 9 are vaccinated, why can't we ease up up morenor less completely? The line is fine and the balancing act precarious. But I'm scared I'm missing something.

This is how I feel. We wont know though as if that was the case it would cause mass panic

So.. do you think they invented the virus for this purpose?

Hmmmm that’s not what @Sassenach85 said. Was it @LastTrainEast?

You are reading what you want to hear - which is all about conspiracy. Like I said - it is you who are obsessed with it.

Could you imagine if the National grid went down

@Isolatedizzy Its closer than you think. Either that or its a dummy run.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4143223-WTF-is-going-on-at-EON

@GetOffYourHighHorse
I'm chilled that there are actually people with such views. They'll hide it behind "the elderly" but really they mean all vulnerable groups (children with underlying conditions too) and don't forget anyone with a 'self inflicted' condition (which apparently includes eczema now!). Scary shit.

Hex thank you.