I met one of those "I'm not putting that in my body"

[Toorapid]

people this week. I didn't think they really existed.

It was at a (virtual) networking thing. Professional people who are in a category where some LAs are vaccinating us and some aren't. Most people in the "room" had already had the vaccination, except this one very vocal woman.

An educated woman, 40ish, in a position of responsibility, working in a sector supporting vulnerable people (hence the access to vaccines). I've met her before and she always seemed very switched on, socially responsible and very capable in her role.

As I said, I thought these people were a bit of an internet myth, but if they did exist, I didn't expect them to be people like this.

Have you met any?

@CrunchyCarrot

I'm one of 'those people' too. Let me finish the sentence (from my perspective):

I'm not putting that in my body... because I have autoimmunity, allergies and am not convinced that these vaccines are safe for me and won't have an adverse effect. I am not willing at this point to take it. This may change. Of course having Covid may also be unsafe, and I have factored this into my decision.

Your medical issues are valid reasons to be hesitant to vaccine. It is in order to protect people like you that it is important to have as high a vaccination level as possible in the general population.

My friend's daughter has allergies which mean they do not vaccinate her. It does not make them anti vax.

Well yes, but you are sharing a list of 'side effects' many of which are very likely not. I think that needs clarification

If you think they are incorrectly recording side effects you should contact Pfizer or the government and point that out because Pfizer has a history of being a bit vague about side effects.

www.corp-research.org/pfizer

People have a right to make their own choices.

[quote JamieFrasersAuntie]Well yes, but you are sharing a list of 'side effects' many of which are very likely not. I think that needs clarification

If you think they are incorrectly recording side effects you should contact Pfizer or the government and point that out because Pfizer has a history of being a bit vague about side effects.

www.corp-research.org/pfizer[/quote]
@JamieFrasersAuntie I don't think they are incorrectly recording side effects. I think you are misinterpreting the link that you provided as an exhaustive list of serious side effects. It isn't. It's a list of 'adverse events' recorded within a specific time frame after vaccination, including sunburn, thermal burns, and head injuries.

I don't think they are incorrectly recording side effects. I think you are misinterpreting the link that you provided as an exhaustive list of serious side effects. It isn't. It's a list of 'adverse events' recorded within a specific time frame after vaccination, including sunburn, thermal burns, and head injuries

www.pharmacytimes.com/contributor/shelby-leheny-pharmd-candidate-2017/2017/02/adverse-event-not-the-same-as-side-effect

There is a big difference between side effects and adverse reactions.

If you are correct that this is a list of adverse effects it's very worrying.

I do wonder why you are more concerned with sunburns than heart attacks though.

@JamieFrasersAuntie

I don't think they are incorrectly recording side effects. I think you are misinterpreting the link that you provided as an exhaustive list of serious side effects. It isn't. It's a list of 'adverse events' recorded within a specific time frame after vaccination, including sunburn, thermal burns, and head injuries

www.pharmacytimes.com/contributor/shelby-leheny-pharmd-candidate-2017/2017/02/adverse-event-not-the-same-as-side-effect

There is a big difference between side effects and adverse reactions.

If you are correct that this is a list of adverse effects it's very worrying.

I do wonder why you are more concerned with sunburns than heart attacks though.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The list is not necessarily of vaccine side effects or adverse effects. What is being reported is any medical event that has been recorded within a specific time frame of people receiving the vaccine, many of which are wholly and totally unrelated to vaccination such as sunburn. These reports, particularly where an event is recorded in low numbers, do not prove causality in any way. Vaccinate enough people, particularly in older age groups, and record what happens for a while after and you would expect to see some heart attacks and deaths because that would have happened to those people anyway. JVT has said today that 12 million people have been vaccinated in the U.K. and there is no indication from surveillance that vaccination is associated with serious effects. If you made a similar database of enough people taking paracetamol you would see similar.

Im astonished that you think you know many of these events are wholly unrelated. Thats quite a ridiculous claim I think considering you don't know the people involved or their ages or medical history.

Thegereldine3000

“People have a right to make their own choices.“

Indeed they do. They must do so though with their eyes open and accept that their choice will close certain avenues off to them. Various careers, for example, or being able to fly or enter certain countries.

@JamieFrasersAuntie

Im astonished that you think you know many of these events are wholly unrelated. Thats quite a ridiculous claim I think considering you don't know the people involved or their ages or medical history.

@JamieFrasersAuntie I deal with VAERS data at work quite a lot, hence knowing a fair amount about its shortcomings.

@JamieFrasersAuntie

Im astonished that you think you know many of these events are wholly unrelated. Thats quite a ridiculous claim I think considering you don't know the people involved or their ages or medical history.

Did you also read the bit about there being no serious adverse event signals following vaccination of 12 million people?

What I find weird, abnormal and concerning is that if you're a normal, intelligent, generally pro-vaxxer person and you feel it's quite normal to ask questions about the mass vaccination of the world's adult population using a new vaccine technology, for which there is no long term data, developed by pharmaceutical companies that have no public liability, you're immediately labelled as daft, an anti-vaxxer, or a crazed conspiracy theorist.

We've been bombarded by the forensic science of viruses, death by virus, and vaccines for nearly a year. Information isn't just there to encourage compliance or provide reassurance, it also inspires questions, further research and, yes, sometimes doubt or concerns. Faced with that opportunity, some folk will disappear down rabbit holes aplenty, but not everyone.

I'm hopeful vaccines will help protect vulnerable people from this virus; I'm less hopeful that it'll turn the tide on the hysteria and intolerance that seem to have infected a lot of people too.

I had the vaccine 2 days ago, I’m not clinically vulnerable I got it as I work with children with severe and complex needs and me getting it means they will be able to all come back to school sooner rather than later. I have a sore arm, a bit of a headache and feel a bit note tired than normal. I have a degree in microbiology so have a bit more background knowledge as to how vaccines work, I’m 45 so am beyond childbearing age now. In my youth I put a lot of illegal substances in my body so I think I shouldn’t really grumble about taking a vaccine really, I’m happy to take it if it protects other vulnerable people.

@JamieFrasersAuntie Do some research? That's what the guys in the labs and the analysts do. Your Google search isn't research, really. That's a silly comeback. Because we can't.
But even paracetamol has a side effect list.

It's entirely your choice but it's no more informed than my choice to be vaccinated.

[quote JamieFrasersAuntie]**@southeastdweller we know the side effects of Covid. They are evident. There are no evident side effects of the vaccine

I'm getting quite fed up of this now. There ARE side effects and they are recorded here by the government. There are 49472 reactions recorded and 107 fatal reactions recorded in a little over a month. For one vaccine.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/958616/COVID-19_mRNA_Pfizer-_BioNTech_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf

All countries are recording these reactions and fatalities and the collective figures are alarming.

People really now need to stop with the mocking and bullying and suggestions to do some research. Some of us do. I'm sick to death of being called an anti vaxxer or conspiracy theorist.[/quote]
That is a gross misrepresentation of that link. You do realise the link includes 'reactions' such as pregnancy and herpes? Neither of which result from vaccination.

@tilder best keep my eye on my Gran. A baby at 89 would not be a good idea

[quote Nohomemadecandles]@tilder best keep my eye on my Gran. A baby at 89 would not be a good idea

[/quote]
Euwww. My parents have had the vaccine too. As have my in laws. What a dreadful thought!

Ethelfromnumber73 Wed 10-Feb-21 22:49:46
JamieFrasersAuntie

Im astonished that you think you know many of these events are wholly unrelated. Thats quite a ridiculous claim I think considering you don't know the people involved or their ages or medical history.

Did you also read the bit about there being no serious adverse event signals following vaccination of 12 million people?

For me there is a word missing. The word "yet" after your event word.
Super and brill that the vaccination programme has gone relatively well up to now. But some more time needs to pass as far as I am concerned. I think another 18 months? And then most things, if there is to be a problem, should have come to light.
fwiw, I have had covid, so I am possibly in a different category to those who have not had it. Who knows for sure. But people saying, ooh it has been researched, and ooh, nothing much has happened, are somewhat missing the point. Everything could turn out well, but time hasnt ended on how the vaccine is going to be. And research about it certainly hasnt ended.
By all means, choose the vaccine, but I think I am right in saying that research wont end on the current batch of covid vaccines being administered, for about another 8 years.

I'm one if those people too. Already had covid and I'm not prepared to take a medical treatment licensed under emergency protocols without liability for the pharmaceutical companies for an illness that for the vast majority (including myself) is mild. Nor will I be giving consent for my daughter to be vaccinated.

If that means I have to home school, not travel, not go to football matches, concerts etc so be it. It's absolutely NOTHING to do with you what others put in their bodies and I couldn't give a shit what snide, judgemental, unquestioning strangers on the internet think.

And before you ask, no, I don't particularly care about protecting others. I'm not interested in donating a kidney for the greater good either. I'll worry about my own health and leave others alone to worry about their own too.

Perfectly happy to not burden the NHS as long as this arrangement works both ways and I'm allowed to withhold NI contributions and arrange my own private health cover. One thing this pandemic has shown me is that we are absolutely NOT in this together.

@MrsGradyOldLady

I'm one if those people too. Already had covid and I'm not prepared to take a medical treatment licensed under emergency protocols without liability for the pharmaceutical companies for an illness that for the vast majority (including myself) is mild. Nor will I be giving consent for my daughter to be vaccinated.

If that means I have to home school, not travel, not go to football matches, concerts etc so be it. It's absolutely NOTHING to do with you what others put in their bodies and I couldn't give a shit what snide, judgemental, unquestioning strangers on the internet think.

And before you ask, no, I don't particularly care about protecting others. I'm not interested in donating a kidney for the greater good either. I'll worry about my own health and leave others alone to worry about their own too.

Perfectly happy to not burden the NHS as long as this arrangement works both ways and I'm allowed to withhold NI contributions and arrange my own private health cover. One thing this pandemic has shown me is that we are absolutely NOT in this together.

Just because you have had covid doesn’t mean you won’t get it again, lots of people are doing among the nhs staff I have spoken to. Nor does it mean it will be mild again.

Nor do you know that it was truly mild. I had what was almost certainly covid before testing was available and I never felt ill for a second but my sense of smell is still affected. Some neurobiologists are concerned that long term these very mild cases where only smell was affected may result in a huge surge in Parkinsonism or other neurological problems, meanwhile in one study almost all of those who had been entirely asymptomatic had sustained lung damage.

Ok, you only care about your own health but I can say that purely from the point of my own health, I would much much rather have had the vaccine before ever having the illness. And I would much rather have the vaccine in due course than have the illness again.

@SpiderinaWingMirror

Ah well. One fewer in the queue ahead of me.

This

It's individual choice and a human right to choose what goes in your body. I don't see what the problem is. They're not one of "those", it's her right as a human to decide what she does. As it is mine and I'm not having it either, despite being CEV (and I've also chosen not to shield and to continue working in a high risk job thoughout) ... And I expect my right to choose what I do to be respected. As everyone's should be. Now I do have severe allergies and I have very good reasons (confirmed by my drs) why I can't have it, however I would also expect my right to choose to be respected if I just didn't want to put a medication / vaccine into myself for whatever reason.
Posts like this are horrible

What I find weird, abnormal and concerning is that if you're a normal, intelligent, generally pro-vaxxer person and you feel it's quite normal to ask questions about the mass vaccination of the world's adult population using a new vaccine technology, for which there is no long term data, developed by pharmaceutical companies that have no public liability, you're immediately labelled as daft, an anti-vaxxer, or a crazed conspiracy theorist.
I totally agree. I am also surprised that any attempt of a rational discussion on the topic is immediately shot down by mixing the opponent with dirt and assigning some bizarrely extreme views to them.
I once made a short comment somewhere in a closed group on the social media (exactly along the lines you mentioned - no crazy things) and there were dozens of people who had immediately jumped at me and told me that vaccines don't cause autism (I have never stated anything of that kind), making jokes about me being afraid of being microchipped (again, I haven't said anything like this) and suggesting that I go back to the primary school to improve my numeracy if I can't comprehend the safety data. I am at the end of a wet-science research degree and I have a postgrad qualification in statistics already, but maybe I indeed need to go back and sit with 6 year olds to understand that level of argumentation.

@Aria999

My thoughts too!

I bet you put sugar, veg oils and grains into your body too thinking it's food🤣

@TryingNotToPanicOverCovid

Ooh yes I read the book about Henrietta Lacks. Horrifying.

The way the Lacks family were treated was fucking appalling and I think there are many on here who would think it was perfectly acceptable.

I've met people who are "not putting that in their body" - or, as I prefer to think of it, "exercising their right to make an informed choice regarding their consent to or not to have a medical procedure with full mental capacity to do so"

Hell one of the key principles of that is that people with capacity have the freedom to make their own choices - even if it's a bloody stupid one. Terrifies me how willing people are to try to throw away that right and force people to have things done to them; while also wanting desperately to shut down ANY discussion of potential side effects or reservations about it as well.