I met one of those "I'm not putting that in my body"

[Toorapid]

people this week. I didn't think they really existed.

It was at a (virtual) networking thing. Professional people who are in a category where some LAs are vaccinating us and some aren't. Most people in the "room" had already had the vaccination, except this one very vocal woman.

An educated woman, 40ish, in a position of responsibility, working in a sector supporting vulnerable people (hence the access to vaccines). I've met her before and she always seemed very switched on, socially responsible and very capable in her role.

As I said, I thought these people were a bit of an internet myth, but if they did exist, I didn't expect them to be people like this.

Have you met any?

Thank goodness there is a site where those who express doubt as to whether they will have the vaccine are subjected to character assassination.

I am sure the vast majority of people will have the vaccine but it is surely everybody's right to determine what medical interventions they will have. Now there is a campaign to, in effect, "unfriend" people if they express doubts or say they are unwilling to comply. There have even been suggestions that refusers should be tattooed or denied treatment for any sort of condition if it emerges that they have not been vaccinated.

I find it depressing, sinister and frightening but I am pleased to see that there is a more balanced and less hysterical debate on Mumsnet than on other social networking sites, where there have been suggestions that anyone expressing doubts should be "blocked".

No, no, it's important you be able to speak out about it so we know who you are. So that we can avoid you, now we now vaccination cuts transmission.

*now we know

@ellyeth I agree - people should have the right to refuse the vaccine for whatever reason and not be penalised or ostracised for the decision in any way.

I know someone who has never had a vaccine and refused them for her children. Her thinking is that they are all fit and healthy and they will be healthier for allowing their bodies to fight off bacteria and viruses themselves.

It's not a position I agree with but I respect their right to hold it.

DP has the right to drive without his glasses on, if he chooses to take that risk — without them, he can meet the level needed to drive, but his vision is noticeably poorer than with glasses. But I have the right not to get in the car with him driving unless he's wearing his specs.

Unfortunately, all the other road users won't know he's posing them an additional risk and can't avoid him, but I can't do anything about that, and I absolutely have the right to be personally safer by avoiding being his passenger if he's chosen to drive with poor vision.

For the same reason, I'll gladly take note of, and avoid, the gratuitously unvaccinated, and I believe other people and organisations have the right to protect themselves too.

@CrayonInThreeBits wearing glasses is in no way a comparison to having a vaccine

I think people are entitled to feel how they want about it, even if that IS “they’re putting a microchip in my body”
However, other people are allowed to point out issues with it, and I do think that the thought of “well enough people will have it that I don’t have to” is a bit flimsy. What if everyone thought that? Or just enough so that the vaccine didn’t do much to cut transmission, and the NHS is still overwhelmed... No one can make you have a vaccine and nor should they be able to, but when it’s something like this you should expect to have people question it.

The only person I’ve come across who is very “anti” believed in the 5G connection at the start of the pandemic, so she doesn’t stand out as a shining beacon in the logic + risk assessment stakes as far as I’m concerned. She’s also persuaded her parents not to have it and they appear to be at much greater risk from what she’s told me.
People have become very nonchalant about vaccinations because they’ve grown up benefitting from them and largely haven’t lived through the devastation of some of the childhood diseases that we’ve now largely eradicated. I’m fairly sure that the majority of families touched by Spanish Flu a hundred years ago would have been on their knees thanking god for the opportunity to provide protection against a virus that can be fatal. Not anymore... we trust the science when it comes to our ITU admissions but not when it comes to prevention.

@Divebar2021 People have become very nonchalant about vaccinations because they’ve grown up benefitting from them and largely haven’t lived through the devastation of some of the childhood diseases that we’ve now largely eradicated. I’m fairly sure that the majority of families touched by Spanish Flu a hundred years ago would have been on their knees thanking god for the opportunity to provide protection against a virus that can be fatal. Not anymore... we trust the science when it comes to our ITU admissions but not when it comes to prevention.

This. My DM brother died of polio first half of 20th century. Something that is now widely eradicated via vaccination. Maybe the anti vax crowd will now start turning when they realise they cannot rely on the rest of us anymore to protect them.

Divebar2021 You are speaking absolute nonsense. So you are pretty much saying that people denying the jab are naive to pandemics?

Well that’s weird because Governments Worldwide are currently trying to ham down our threats that we are in the middle of one and that it’s so bad that even being and feeling well doesn’t mean you’re less than 5 minutes from being dead.

Yet still we stand strong.

Oh right. Ok so why the big surge in deaths from measles that happened across parts of Europe in 2019?

If it were just about ME then no, I wouldn't have the vaccine. I'm not clinically vulnerable, it's overwhelmingly likely I'd catch covid and recover fine, and in fact 11 months in I still don't know one single person who has tested positive

That said, it's not about me. It's about suppressing the virus on a population scale that means children can return to education, people can return to work, we can mix with our loved ones, and those who are clinically vulnerable are protected without having to be holed up at home for years on end.

So am I desperate to have the vaccine? No, not at all. But I don't see another option if I am to act as a responsible member of society in helping to end the pandemic.

@TooSensibleOfMyDefects

If it were just about ME then no, I wouldn't have the vaccine. I'm not clinically vulnerable, it's overwhelmingly likely I'd catch covid and recover fine, and in fact 11 months in I still don't know one single person who has tested positive

That said, it's not about me. It's about suppressing the virus on a population scale that means children can return to education, people can return to work, we can mix with our loved ones, and those who are clinically vulnerable are protected without having to be holed up at home for years on end.

So am I desperate to have the vaccine? No, not at all. But I don't see another option if I am to act as a responsible member of society in helping to end the pandemic.

But why aren't you putting yourself first? You're saying that other people's needs are more important than yours?

@southeastdweller For her it will likely be neutral. For others it will be a benefit. That’s called being kind.

You know what? I don't care, and am not overly concerned. The uptake so far in the U.K. is phenomenal. Last night I was vaccinating folk. We maybe got through 3 or 4 hundred. Folk queued in the snow to get to us, and not a single drop was wasted.
Maybe it's time we focussed on the positives, the vast majority who are rolling up their sleeves for this, and not waste too much breath on the vocal very very small
Minority?

I don’t understand the hate on the ‘selfish folk who might infect others’. Surely if ‘others’ have had their jab, they are in do danger?

If the answer to that is ‘but we don’t know how much protection it gives’ then why castigate the non-vaccinated for refusing something that is not much use anyway?

This conversation feel like it incorporates everything thats bad about current social discourse- insistence on an orthodoxy, shaming, virtue signalling, erosion of freedoms, cancelling, polarisation, thought policing. I feel as a society maybe covid is the least of our problems.

But why aren't you putting yourself first? You're saying that other people's needs are more important than yours?

Well, yes in a way. It's a balancing act. If it were only about me, it's not enough to tip the balance for me to get it. It's about society as a whole.

I think most of us do things for the good of society as a whole, don't we? And then we all reap the benefits? I'm not saying I'm some amazing selfless person, but I'm saying I feel a sense of civic duty.

@Dodododahdahdah

Divebar2021 You are speaking absolute nonsense. So you are pretty much saying that people denying the jab are naive to pandemics?

Well that’s weird because Governments Worldwide are currently trying to ham down our threats that we are in the middle of one and that it’s so bad that even being and feeling well doesn’t mean you’re less than 5 minutes from being dead.

Yet still we stand strong.

@Dodododahdahdah so much drama. I know it doesn't suit your narrative but the vast majority of the population are not sitting at home quaking with fear. We are simply doing what is needed with very gritted teeth to get out of this, whether that be by limiting contact or by getting vaccinated. Some of us even understand how viruses and pandemics work- which is clearly not the case for you since you are still banging on about herd immunity.

@TooSensibleOfMyDefects

But why aren't you putting yourself first? You're saying that other people's needs are more important than yours?

Well, yes in a way. It's a balancing act. If it were only about me, it's not enough to tip the balance for me to get it. It's about society as a whole.

I think most of us do things for the good of society as a whole, don't we? And then we all reap the benefits? I'm not saying I'm some amazing selfless person, but I'm saying I feel a sense of civic duty.

OK, I’d feel the same if I knew there were no nasty side effects, long term or short term, coming my way, but each to their own.

@whatisthislifesofullofcare

I don’t understand the hate on the ‘selfish folk who might infect others’. Surely if ‘others’ have had their jab, they are in do danger?

If the answer to that is ‘but we don’t know how much protection it gives’ then why castigate the non-vaccinated for refusing something that is not much use anyway?

This conversation feel like it incorporates everything thats bad about current social discourse- insistence on an orthodoxy, shaming, virtue signalling, erosion of freedoms, cancelling, polarisation, thought policing. I feel as a society maybe covid is the least of our problems.

Well said , this is my view . If you want the vaccination then great. You are taking it to be protected so why do you care if others don’t ? If the vulnerable and who want it are protected then those who don’t will eventually get it and so have some natural immunity or they won’t . As the risk to the non vulnerable is low then they are unlikely to be filling up the hospitals either

@southeastdweller you mean nasty Covid side effects don’t you ?

[quote Blessex]@southeastdweller you mean nasty Covid side effects don’t you ?[/quote]
No, I mean side effects of the vaccine.

Well there are vulnerable people who can't get the vaccine for clinical reasons, but yeah fuck them they can stay indoors forever.

Also the vaccine is very effective and useful but isn't 100% effective, so for those who still get very ill, well fuck them too.

People who don't take the vaccine will be catching and spreading the virus to others without the vaccine (including under 18s) and to a lesser extent those who have had the vaccine. That's the truth of it. If you don't care about that, fine, but that level of individualism is not one that I would hope most people ascribe to.

@southeastdweller ahhh. What are those then? And how prevalent are they? Have a few friends who are unable to exercise because of Covid.

[quote Blessex]@southeastdweller ahhh. What are those then? And how prevalent are they? Have a few friends who are unable to exercise because of Covid.[/quote]
Well, I don’t know what the long term side effects are, nobody does. I’d rather get Covid.