Covid deniers are scumbags

[BlueFlyAway]

I was reading a thread here on mumsnet that made me cry so much and it hammered home just how serious the virus is. Young people seriously sick in hospital and dying. It's bad at any age and I lost a second cousin before her time due to covid but its particularly bad when it's hitting younger people.

The virus never came directly to my door but I know it's real. I am hating the restrictions and the lockdown so much but I'm following the public health rules all the same but I am finding it hard but I don't intentions of breaking the rules.

People who play this virus down as if it's nothing - covid deniers - they are scumbags. I know the virus can be mild for some people but it's not for everyone.

Going back to an earlier post. People are not putting on weight because gyms are closed, weight gain is about 90% what you eat.

@HaveANiceFuckingDay

I've met one who says wake up and open your eyes it's just the flu He says that even though his FIL Died of covid late last year Went in with sepsis , tested positive for Covid and died , they put covid on the death certificate not sepsis He believes its Something to do with being a cashless society?? That doesn't even make sense I gave up listening last summer

If the FIL died of sepsis that is what it should be recorded as. Covid may have been the catalyst for sepsis but it is the sepsis that kills. Putting covid as the cause of death makes as much sense as putting cause of death: cut finger, if that is what lead to the sepsis that killed.

What sources are they @RedMarauder
The samaritans and ONS don't have true statistics, because they aren't available yet.

@stilllovingmysleep is it an service you work in, where people reach out if suicidal? If those who killed themselves didn't reach out to anyone, or friends/family didn't log they were trying to deal with suicidal people - then how would that factor in to your job?

Another sad comparison with the titanic is that the lower classes came off worst.

@Neron

What sources are they *@RedMarauder* The samaritans and ONS don't have true statistics, because they aren't available yet.

@stilllovingmysleep is it an service you work in, where people reach out if suicidal? If those who killed themselves didn't reach out to anyone, or friends/family didn't log they were trying to deal with suicidal people - then how would that factor in to your job?

@Neron I would prefer to not give details of where I work but the statistics are clear and robust

For me personally it comes down to the amount of people who seem entirely ignorant that anything may exist in the world outside of their own personal experience. It's a horrible form of ignorance. I don't get angry but I do genuinely feel quite sorry for anyone who genuinely seems to think that if it hasn't happened to the few people they know then it can't exist.

I mean imagine living your life so unutterably ignorant that you think things don't exist unless it is there in front of them. What a small little life that is. You see it on MN all the time. Well I don't know anyone who has had it , Or it was fine for me. As if the person genuinely believes they are the centre of the world and nothing outside their preview can possibly be relevant.

None of this is as simple as we want to believe. Covid is killing people , so is lockdown , so are misdiagnosis or late diagnoses. People are desperate to see another "perfect" way. Where all of this is made up or goes away if someone above made a different or a better decision.

It's just not true. It's ignorance to claim it doesn't exist or is not as bad. It's reality to say that lockdown is affecting people. There is no perfect answer. People want someone to blame or someone to fix it. It's a worldwide pandemic, there are no easy answers and its borderline childish to expect them.

@Shinyletsbebadguys excellent post. I agree with everything you've said: the situation is shit whichever way we look at it. No easy answers. No easy policies.

And even those of us (eg me and many others) who would prefer some policies over others can see nothing in this awful situation comes without consequences

I haven't asked you to give out details of where you work @stilllovingmysleep. You've claimed to work for the NHS in a service that focuses on suicides. I've simply asked if that is in a suicidal capacity, I.e trying to minimise deaths. If you worked in such a service, then would you have a clue about the suicides that happened if those people didn't even reach out.

In addition, a favourite here on mumsnet, is wanting sources to back up claims. I'm seeing info from the ONS and Samaritans that suicide figures are not known yet. If there is a source that says the figures are known, and that suicides haven't increased, then I would like to research that.

I don't think people realise that the covid deniers are not so much deniers -I haven't heard anyone say it doesn't exist. But most realise that there's a lot of scaremongering going and misplaced anger.

For example - everyone blaming people having friends round. Ok this is against the rules but there are people mixing in bubbles everyday - almost all probably aren't even legal. Bubbles allow cross generational mixing - how do you think all these older people are getting it?!

How many people on here see their parents - why are you seeing them? Of course some need care but the majority see them because it's convenient and because 'they can' - bubbles aren't actually protective barriers you know?!

Then you have those in childcare bubbles - sorry but if I was stuck for childcare the last person i'd be using is a grandparent. How do you justify putting them at risk and then going to work? Sort your own kids out. I know 2 CEV people who caught it and both were providing care for their grandkids who mixed everyday in school.

Why blame students - most live away from home with people their own age - if they're not mixing with those at risk what does it matter? Students aren't the ones blocking the hospital beds.

Those moaning about kids outside - you know my ds going out for an hour a day is nothing compared to the mixing going on in school (most at least half full) or the mixing going on at work. Why should my ds have to stay in and be completely isolated but most people get some social contact?

Then you have the people in their 60-80s who we are protecting - they're the ones mixing with family and not following the rules half the time!

Everyone says theyre following the rules but how many have net family this weekend- yet same ones bang on about people not following the rules

As for cases - the government figures themselves show 1/3 are picked up in hospitals! Wheres the uproar about that? Captain Tom picked his in hospital and noone batted an eye.

The other twp main places are schools and workplaces. EVERYONE is at work - as it seems on mumsnet, unless you work in an office in London most people are in work. I dont know a single person working from home.

Where i live we have the south african variant but then everyone is still allowed to go to work- not just essential - but anyone who cant work from home. So everyone is! This sort of crap makes no sense. It's not about denying covid it's about weighing up risks,

So no i'm not going to blame joe bloggs opposite for having his mates round because i go to work and mix with 40 peole everyday in a business that isn't covid secure - most aren't.

Even if they're technically secure - most people don't care enough to actually follow distancing

So no it's not about being a denier - its about being realistic

People blamed holidays - you know we were only allowed abroad to places with cases less than 20/100,000? Thus those people on holiday were in safer places than being at home

Covid cant disappear - its a virus

It won't reduce massively because hospitals and workplaces and schools still have huge numbers

far too many in bubbles

And as for hospitals full of young people - give it a rest. There are 5550 ICU beds in the whole of the UK and only 1/4 are occupied by people under 60. And that's out of a population of 67 million.

Given almost 90% of deaths have underlying conditions - most likely serious - the numbers of healthy individuals dying must be miniscule. People die, its sad but they died before covid too.

It’s funny how those who supposedly have these damning statistics can’t point to a single source for them. And no, if you work for an organisation that is responsible for collecting nationwide days you are not identifiable.

*statistics not days

I haven't heard anyone say it doesn't exist.
Anecdotal. I have, others have, social media is crawling with them.

everyone blaming people having friends round. Ok this is against the rules but there are people mixing in bubbles everyday
It’s about limiting exposure. We have to mix in certain bubbles to exist. We don’t have to see friends for a natter as it’s increasing the exposure.

Then you have those in childcare bubbles - sorry but if I was stuck for childcare the last person i'd be using is a grandparent. How do you justify putting them at risk and then going to work?
Probably because they have no other choice. It must be nice to be in a position to have options. Lots don’t and would literally lose their job and subsequently their house if they didn’t go to work.

Given almost 90% of deaths have underlying conditions - most likely serious - the numbers of healthy individuals dying must be miniscule. People die, its sad but they died before covid too
I find it odd people are so short sighted over this and think death is the worst outcome. Long covid is real. More and more studies are being done on the neurological impact of covid, I’d rather not end up with lifelong organ damage, increased likelihood of strokes, dementia, Alzheimers etc.
www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-hidden-long-term-cognitive-effects-of-covid-2020100821133

It’s entirely possible that someone working in a service may have access to yet unpublished data. It might be localised but if that ‘local’ is reasonably representative of how national statistics tend to play out and the local data says that suicides aren’t going up then I’d be inclined to believe them. Also I’ve heard this same thing from other sources too. People say ‘suicides have gone up’ because it fits their agenda and it seems plausible. Not because there is evidence. But it’s seen as arseholey to try and refute such a statement- because people are still committing suicide and their deaths still matter.

The point of all the lockdowns etc is so that we have enough healthcare to deal with the people who do get sick and so we have enough healthcare to deal with all the other things that carry on- births, accidents, critical surgery.

I have seen discussions where people have been complaining that they can’t have a homebirth because of staffing and I was thinking about what happens if there literally aren’t enough people on duty to look after women coming in in labour to the ward... never mind sending 2 midwives out to one woman at home. The reality is that if so many of your workforce are off sick that you cannot staff your unit it just becomes disaster medicine. But people don’t want to hear that, they just parrot out how we are all lazing about doing nothing and making tiktoks.

After a year of this I am seeing a psychologist. I’m reasonably good at ignoring all the nonsense but being told that you aren’t experiencing something really terrible when your colleagues have actually died or got long term illness is gaslighting in the extreme.

Data is available to appropriate staff on deaths and hospital admissions before the freeze date and the later publication dates.

Suicide statistics are especially sensitive because they are fortunately few in number at a local level, and so there is a risk of individuals being identified.

@SmallPrawnEnergy

It’s funny how those who supposedly have these damning statistics can’t point to a single source for them. And no, if you work for an organisation that is responsible for collecting nationwide days you are not identifiable.

Actually it could entirely be outing. I've worked I several roles that specific data would come through to us and the nature of the role meant it was quite niche. Whilst the person on the street might not be able to identify me , colleagues absolutely would.

I once worked in a role that whilst not glamorous or high level there were at the time about 15 people who did it in the country and there was a genuine security need (for my service users) that staff weren't identified. This was also a role I had access to specific data that related to my niche job , again if the wrong person read it (and we all accidentally use phrases that are industry or job specific ) they would be able to easily guess who I was. There is a good reason some on MN are careful not to be identified. Trying to invalidate them by dismissing that is remarkably uninformed.

To talk more generally about the suicide / mental health issue.

I get upset and annoyed by how these issues are used in the pandemic particularly by those who for decades have underfunded our services

My main point about suicide attempts (putting aside the statistics) is that in the pandemic we are seeing other issues on the rise in mental health services, NOT suicide due to lockdown

Most teenagers seem bored and under motivated in the pandemic. School attendance problems have increased. But not suicidality that has largely remained the same

The main problems we are seeing, by far, are to do with bereavement, effects on financial problems, school attendance issues and lack of motivation (as I said). The rest of the reasons for referral all pretty much the same as before the pandemic. But the areas above seem to have increased eg in my service there is no day or week we don't hear of our patients talking about illness or death

It should be possible to question lockdown and raise the many harms that lockdown causes without being labelled a "denier". I don't deny the existance of Covid or how severe it can be, but I am as sick of being silenced for saying that lockdown kills people too. Covid is not killer.

How does lockdown "kill people"?

Suicide, increased drug and alcohol abuse, inability to access medical care, increased abuse and violence in the home, a growing child welfare crisis, amongst other things. It also destroys life chances, esp for the young. Poverty does itself increase mortality. You cannot shut society without there being a human cost. It is possible to acknowledge that and also acknowledge the severity of Covid. So no, I am not a Covid denier.

My previous post should have read "Covid is not the only killer" in its final sentence.

@TooManyPlatesInMotion see my post above about the mental health issues that are actually on the increase during lockdown

To my knowledge drug and alcohol abuse are not on the increase during lockdown, nor is child abuse

Allowing a virus run rampant through society in fact affects everything else negatively so there's all the more reason to push for very low numbers and then reopen properly

Lockdown is not easy and has its own side effects, but not the ones you cited

Once again, as I've said before about Covid, it really isn't just about deaths. I have long Covid and it's played havoc with my life over the last year. I know that a lot of people try to deny this phenomenon, but, believe me, it does exist. It's affected people much younger than me without any underlying issues.

I'm 51, overweight and already had CFS, so admittedly I don't fit into that category. But others do and, although we're talking about probably a small minority of cases, there's as yet no way to know who is at risk of developing long Covid.

Other youngish people end up in hospital for weeks. A majority of these will have underlying issues or be overweight, but there are enough who don't to mean that it's a risk to avoid if possible.

And obviously, Covid is an infectious disease, which means that ignoring it is selfish. Vaccines are being rolled out now, so there is an end in sight if only we can all have a little patience.

@buffyp

That works both ways sodi. People who want to deny the fact that suicide rates have risen due to lockdown are every bit as selfish. The fact is there are casualties of the lockdowns including cancer diagnosis being missed and treatments being suspended. People losing their livelihood and their homes. These are just as important and pointing that out does not make someone a Covid denier or scumbag. I’m sorry for the ops cousin but I find the use of the word scumbag highly offensive and I am afraid they are more guilty of fitting their own description than any lockdown sceptic.

Completely agree

How does cancer diagnosis and treatment improve if Covid infection is high in the community?

[quote stilllovingmysleep]@TooManyPlatesInMotion see my post above about the mental health issues that are actually on the increase during lockdown

To my knowledge drug and alcohol abuse are not on the increase during lockdown, nor is child abuse

Allowing a virus run rampant through society in fact affects everything else negatively so there's all the more reason to push for very low numbers and then reopen properly

Lockdown is not easy and has its own side effects, but not the ones you cited [/quote]
To your knowledge child abuse is not on the increase?? Your knowledge is wrong.