Captain Sir Tom Moore: Cleric's apology for tweet condemning nationwide clap 'does not undo hurt'

[trulydelicious]

news.sky.com/story/captain-sir-tom-moore-apology-for-tweet-condemning-clap-for-captain-tom-does-not-undo-hurt-12208212

It's worrying how some can harbour so much hate and still be allowed to hold a position in the Church (and fuel division through Twitter)

And note that it looks odd when I say “white” Frenchman or Italian, yet some posters are determined to insert someone’s colour when it applies to an English (or British) person.

@MadameMinimes

It came about from a conversation between Colin Kapernick and a military veteran

I don't care which activist coined this idea. It's clearly subduing, patronising and offensive. No wonder people are fed up

[quote trulydelicious]@MadameMinimes

It came about from a conversation between Colin Kapernick and a military veteran

I don't care which activist coined this idea. It's clearly subduing, patronising and offensive. No wonder people are fed up[/quote]
Not to mention that it is now been co-opted by the Marxist political movement "BLM" and used to quietly usher in their political ideology which is poles apart from the completely unarguable statement of "black lives matter". They are trying to make the two inseparable in the minds of the general public, when one is a perfect normal and decent response to systemic racism and the other an insidious radical left movement aligned with "Antifa" and working towards the complete and violent dismantlement of society as we currently know it.

But can you give an example of how the comment impacts on your life
I found it offensive. I clapped for Captain Tom and I don’t appreciate being called a white nationalist for showing respect to a brave man.

@HmmSureJan

They are trying to make the two inseparable in the minds of the general public

Exactly. Thankfully people are starting to realise and push back on all this utter crap

[quote trulydelicious]@HmmSureJan

They are trying to make the two inseparable in the minds of the general public

Exactly. Thankfully people are starting to realise and push back on all this utter crap[/quote]
I think the problem is that many are too scared to trust their own normal responses to this stuff. If they think or say "hey, wait a minute, that doesn't make sense/isn't right" they're told they're right wing/racist/trump supporter/facist/alt right/thick/uneducated/do better - take your pick - so they have stopped trusting their own perfectly decent and measured responses to a dangerous and divisive rhetoric. Most people mean well so it's very easy to tell them how "problematic" their response is and what they need to do be on the on The Right Side and they'll believe it and do it. It's really worrying and that's why I point it out wherever I can so that people know that there are others who see it too and maybe will feel able to speak up or push back too even if only in their own minds and thinking.

@Glenchase

But can you give an example of how the comment impacts on your life I found it offensive. I clapped for Captain Tom and I don’t appreciate being called a white nationalist for showing respect to a brave man.

Noone said you were racist. He just made a statement that was too nuanced for Twitter and our news-cycle. There is a reason why a white war veteran was pushed and taken up via the media rather than the other people who have done good.

I think people are misunderstanding racism. An ignorant individual using the n-word (for example) is racist, but it's not the racism that most people complain about.

It's the overt face of the actual problem. This tweet was also not on the same level as using racial slurs.

@DedlyMedally because his daughter works in PR. Not because he is white. FFS

@HmmSureJan

I think the problem is that many are too scared to trust their own normal responses to this stuff

Yes, I agree. But it usually only takes a few who are sensible enough not to give in to the bullying and others will take notice and start to, first see all of this for what it truly is and hopefully speak up.

I see it sometimes in football matches or Formula One racing (the latter is particularly bad for this though)

Yes, people are pushing back to the common sense view - that they reject racism but that these extreme groups have gone too fare.

Most of us do not misunderstand racism. We know perfectly well what it is. It is a horrible thing.

Also be very careful before giving money to any entity calling itself BLM. The Guardian has pointed out concerns about who has registered a new political party in the UK of that name - concerns in the sense of different groups seem to want to claim the title for different reasons www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/27/uk-black-lives-matter-activists-not-behind-attempt-to-use-name-for-political-party

@DedlyMedally

He just made a statement that was too nuanced for Twitter and our news-cycle

Your post doesn't make sense.

You are bending over backwards to make excuses for what he did and it's not working

[quote trulydelicious]@DedlyMedally

He just made a statement that was too nuanced for Twitter and our news-cycle

Your post doesn't make sense.

You are bending over backwards to make excuses for what he did and it's not working[/quote]
What doesn't make sense?

[quote LadyWhistledownthe1st]@DedlyMedally because his daughter works in PR. Not because he is white. FFS[/quote]
How does PR work?
Do they choose a random family member and magically make them popular?
Or do they spot opportunities for angles that align with general public sentiment?
If so, where do these sentiments come from?

@DedlyMedally

You do know what “white nationalism” and “white nationalist” are, correct? Because in your post saying “no one said you were racist” has me suspecting you have no idea that white nationalism is the belief that there should be a nation state of which only white people can be citizens. So a white nationalist, is someone who believes in this concept of a white state or only white people. The priest (who I think should be defrocked for this) in saying it’s a “cult of white British nationalism” was by definition saying any one who respected Sir Capt Tom by doing the clap, is a white British nationalist and part of a cult of white British nationalism. So he’s accusing the clappers as be advocates of Britain for white British only. How is that not calling the clappers racists?

@DedlyMedally

magically make them popular

You cannot 'make' somone popular. You can't force this. They spotted the 'angles' because they are there in the first place.

As someone who isn’t a captain clapper I do find the fetish for memorialising people rather odd. Yes he did a lovely thing for charity, he died at 100 years old having lived a good and long life. Don’t see many memorials for others who gave their lives in service and sacrifice for us. It’s weird this fetish for Sir Tom. Really. I think it just gives people a useful outlet for uncomfortable feelings.

@Angliski

I think it just gives people a useful outlet for uncomfortable feelings

What 'uncomfortable' feelings?

There is a reason why a white war veteran was pushed and taken up via the media rather than the other people who have done good.

Yes it is called the law of probabilities. In a country that is 86% white and furthermore a population where the 85+ yr olds are progressively >90% white chances are that the first person aged 99 who thinks of walking to raise funds for the NHS is going to be a white person.

@Angliski

I do find the fetish for memorialising people rather odd

For some, the elderly (though jovial) and respectable are endearing. It's sad that some think of this as fetishism

DedlyMeledy can you please explain how calling my non-white sisters "white nationalists" for clapping is ok?

Cos that sounded racist as fuck to us.

No one else could answer last time I asked, but I live in hope!

This was a national PR exercise from start to finish. Why were his family allowed to be by his bedside when thousands of people were abandoned by their familied to die alone? Why was no-one clapping for all the people who have dies of Covid, or who are alone and dying of Covid now?

Is it the case that people only think differently because their little tele boxes have told them they are meant to? Do they even care about anyone, or are they just parroting the opinions of the people they like on TV?

The whole country is in lockdown to protect the few elderly and vulnerable, and Ellie you see that as evidence we dont care?

I can not see how you got to that conclusion at all.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@DedlyMedally

You do know what “white nationalism” and “white nationalist” are, correct? Because in your post saying “no one said you were racist” has me suspecting you have no idea that white nationalism is the belief that there should be a nation state of which only white people can be citizens. So a white nationalist, is someone who believes in this concept of a white state or only white people. The priest (who I think should be defrocked for this) in saying it’s a “cult of white British nationalism” was by definition saying any one who respected Sir Capt Tom by doing the clap, is a white British nationalist and part of a cult of white British nationalism. So he’s accusing the clappers as be advocates of Britain for white British only. How is that not calling the clappers racists?[/quote]
This is my point about nuance.
You're describing a white ethnostate, not white nationalism.

And this:
The priest ... in saying it’s a “cult of white British nationalism” was by definition saying any one who respected Sir Capt Tom by doing the clap, is a white British nationalist and part of a cult of white British nationalism.

Is patently untrue.
I'd explain my own interpretation, but I get the impression that it'll be a waste of both of our times.

[quote trulydelicious]@DedlyMedally

magically make them popular

You cannot 'make' somone popular. You can't force this. They spotted the 'angles' because they are there in the first place.[/quote]
These "angles" were not created at the same time as the big bang.
World war 2 was less than a century ago.
The idea is to think about where the angle comes from and the subtext of it.
To be clear, I think the tweet was insensitive at the time and was always going to get this response, regardless of when he tweeted it.
It doesn't mean it has zero basis in reality.

He just made a statement that was too nuanced for Twitter and our news-cycle

I'm not sure what's nuanced about a sweeping remark like “The cult of Captain Tom is a cult of white British nationalism”, when we're supposed to avoid generalising comments about race. He's clearly an intelligent and articulate man, and if he'd simply said it can encourage this I've no doubt most would have agreed with him - and quite rightly IMO

If he was Bob from B&Q nobody would care what he said or didn't say, but he's a trainee faith leader and that carries with it a responsibility - something which, for once, the church appear to have recognised